Believe Leadership with Owen Fitzpatrick
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In this interview, I speak with one of my closest friends, Owen Fitzpatrick CSP, a leading authority in how to shape behavior through belief. A psychologist, author, and keynote speaker, Owen has worked with the likes of Coca-Cola, Google, JP Morgan, LinkedIn, Merck, Pfizer, and Salesforce. His online videos - including his TEDx Talk ‘Mind Control’ - have been viewed by two million people. Owen has authored nine books on behavioral science, translated into 21 languages. He incorporates Neuroscience, Behavioral Science, and Story Science to empower people and organizations to believe better. Owen has spoken in 31 countries and traveled to over 100 countries, including North Korea and Afghanistan. From Ireland, he now lives in NYC.
What is Belief?
An idea that we have certainty about. That's what makes them a belief as opposed to a thought. So we all think thoughts, but a belief is something you've got a conviction in, you have certainty about.
If you believe in something, you're more likely to do something about it.
Building Belief Leadership
Ideas don't lead to change; It's your belief in the idea that leads to change.
Cultivate belief in the ideas that matter.
Help leaders believe in themselves more effectively.
Help teams believe in each other more effectively.
Help salespeople and marketing people be able to help their customers and prospects believe in their brand, their services, and their products.
Believing Better
Taking charge of the way you think.
How do you get people to take charge of their own beliefs?
And then how do you help them to be able to sway other people as well?
What you need when motivation wanes, is you need discipline and routine. But behind the discipline and routine is consistency.
In order for you to be consistent with something, you have to believe in it. Because what the research shows is when we believe in something, when we have a deep conviction in something, we will keep doing it forever.
Believing better is believing more useful, building a model of the world that allows you to perform more effectively. And that model needs to be as accurate as possible, but not necessarily about realistic. Don’t limit yourself with the notion of realism.
Belief Leaders
Cultivate the conditions both mentally, environmentally, and socially;
whereby the people that are going to execute this strategy, are 100%
behind it, and believe in it.
The difference between cultivating belief and motivation or persuasion
is Commitment, and commitment comes from Conviction.
S C A L E D Framework
S - Story.
C - Community
A - Action
L - Logic
E - Emotion
D - Drive
Our beliefs are formed through the stories we tell ourselves through the community we surround ourselves with, and through the actions we take.
Transforming your (V) story to a hero story. The hero has just as much bad stuff happen to them as the victim or the villain. They just learn and turn it around.
What kind of propaganda, positive propaganda campaign do we need to cultivate so that stories are conducive towards being open to really believing in this idea?
Then when you get community, the people you surround yourself with are going to have an influence on your beliefs.
How can you cultivate the community in your team that gets them all inside and gets them influencing each other in a positive way?
“every time you engage in an action, it's a vote for the person you wanna become” - James Clear
Beliefs don't just drive behaviors. Behaviors can also drive Beliefs.
If you can create actions or rituals or routines that complement the kind of beliefs that you want people to have, that can also very much influence the identity they have so that they become more on-site.
So what we need to do is figure out what's useful and what's the most useful, empowering belief that I need to have myself. What's the most useful story I need to tell myself that allows me to perform at the level I need to and allows me to get my team performing at the level they are? …A Proper Story
Confirmation Bias means we look for evidence to prove our
conclusions are true, and we dismiss evidence that contradicts them.
Belief Growth Mindset
The Belief Growth Mindset is your beliefs about your beliefs. So you have all of these different things, and these mindsets and the greater beliefs that hold them determine the way you interact with the world.
Mindsets are like a subset of beliefs.
Whenever you believe that, you can update your beliefs. It's like this meta belief that makes all of your other beliefs, more open to transformation, more open to change, and giving yourself the permission to be able to be open to that allows you to be able to believe better because you aren't stuck with whatever beliefs your unconscious has given you for that moment.
Recognizing the difference between what is knowledge and what's actually a belief
What belief is most likely to get me to where I need to get to?
What's the one that I want to believe in?
Our brains are designed not to keep us happy or confident. They're designed to keep us alive by prediction –predictions by their very nature are not always gonna be accurate. Our predictions are when our brain creates a model of the world to try to predict what's gonna happen next so that we know what to do to survive.
When you change the story, you change the community, you change the actions, and you bring all of that behind you. That's how you build and cultivate a belief. That's how you cultivate conviction. That's how you drive forward, and that's how you're able to handle whatever comes your way.
Belief leadership is really about leading people to have more empowering beliefs. Leading yourself and leading the people that you work with!
www.linkedin.com/in/owenfitzp/
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[00:00:00] Mike Goldman: I am incredibly excited today to have, as a guest, one of my closest friends in the world, and after I read you his bio, you're gonna wonder why he hangs out with me.
Owen Fitzpatrick, CSP, and definitely have to ask him what CSP is all about. I know, but you all need to know. Owen Fitzpatrick CSP is a leading authority on how to shape behavior through belief. A psychologist, author, and keynote speaker Owen has worked with the likes of Coca-Cola, Google, JP Morgan, LinkedIn, Merck, Pfizer, and Salesforce.
His online videos, including his TEDx talk, mind control, which is amazing, by the way, have been viewed by 2 million people. Owen is authored nine books on behavioral science translated into 21 languages. I didn't even know there were 21 languages. . He incorporates neuroscience, behavioral science, and story science to empower people and organizations to believe better.
Owen has spoken in 31 countries and traveled to over 100 countries, including North Korea and Afghanistan from Ireland. He now lives in New York City. Welcome, Owen.
[00:01:19] Owen Fitzpatrick: Thank you very much, Mike. Much appreciated; so good to be interviewed by you. As you mentioned, we're friends. And, for my sins, it's, it was the next natural progressive step for me to come on the show. So really honored and delighted me, and hopefully, you'll be able to shed some life on, some light rather on some of the topics we're gonna talk about.
[00:01:38] Mike Goldman: Now, the audience who, who hopefully knows me a little bit and now knows who you are, is all wondering why you hang out with me. Honestly, help us out.
[00:01:46] Owen Fitzpatrick: No disrespect. I ask myself that all the time. I think it's I wanna give back to the community, and hanging out with people like yourself makes me feel like I'm actually a good person, deep down. So I guess that's probably the best way, to do it.
[00:01:57] Mike Goldman: Yeah. And on top of that, you're a C S P. Tell everybody what a C S P is before we dive in.
[00:02:02] Owen Fitzpatrick: CSP stands for Certified Speaking Professional. It's a designation that a select few, can get. And it's, based upon having, earned a certain amount over the last few years in speaking, having demonstrated like a certain amount of few hundred talks, that you've delivered within a certain time, constraint at particular standards as well. So it's a designation given by the National Speakers Association, for, again, a select few that match the criteria that, that, apply for it. So I got that last year, and, yeah, now I can stick it after my name and pretend I'm more important than I am.
[00:02:33] Mike Goldman: Yeah, no, I, you know what, I'd love to Owen, and I like to make fun of each other where we can, but it's damn impressive to have that CSP, so, yeah. Congrats. Owen, in the intro, one of the things I said that came from you, so you said, is you empower people and organizations to believe better.
[00:02:52] Owen Fitzpatrick: Yeah.
[00:02:52] Mike Goldman: Tell us more about what that means.
[00:02:56] Owen Fitzpatrick: So, for all of my working life, right? I started very young, so I started studying psychology and NLP, and even hypnosis when I was a teenager. And I even worked as, with clients as a qualified hypnotherapist when I was like 17 or so. So I started very young. Now, the big story is, I suppose, the main origin story, which I won't get into now, but it's; I struggled a lot with my own mental health when I was a teenager. And so, as a result of that, I reacted to that and said, I need to be able to figure out how I can take charge of my mind.
I need to build my confidence. I need to become happier. I need to become calmer; I need to be able to respond better. And so with all of that, I set out on the journey, studied psychology, went, did my masters, while at the same time learning things like neurolinguistic programming or NLP, which I know you've, you've familiarity with as well.
and lots of other tools trying to; again, I was hungry to understand the mind, the brain; it was everything to me all along that journey.
The one thing that kept coming up over and over again is this notion of belief, and this idea of not only the beliefs that we have, and our belief is, basically on an idea that we have certainty about. So we feel certain about certain ideas. That's what makes them a belief as opposed to a thought. So we all think thoughts, but a belief is something you've conviction in, you have a certainty about, and therefore it makes logical sense that if you believe in something, you're more likely to do something about it.
And so the way I'd like to put it is, and this is what I call the fields that I'm building called belief leadership. It's that ideas don't lead to change, It's your belief in the idea that leads to change. Ideas don't allow you to transform, ideas don't allow you to succeed. It's your belief in those ideas that allow you to do that.
And so when I come across leaders, leadership teams, and in fact, people in all areas of the business, whether it's in sales or marketing, whatnot, the big challenge, and the big struggle is to be able to work on the beliefs, their own beliefs, and also the beliefs about their prospects, their beliefs about their team, the beliefs that their customers might have.
And so I help organizations and leaders to be able to cultivate belief in the ideas that matter. So I help leaders believe in themselves more effectively. I help teams believe in each other more effectively. I help, salespeople and marketing people to be able to help their customers and prospects believe in their brand, their services, their products, and whatnot.
It's all about getting people into that phase where they're not just motivated, or they're not just persuaded right now. , but they actually have a different way of experiencing you, a different way of experiencing the organization, a different way of experiencing the offerings that you provide for them.
And in my experience in working with lots of organizations, as you mentioned in the bio, a big part of that is how do you get people to take charge of their own beliefs? And then how do you help them to be able to sway other people as well? So it starts with believing better, taking charge of the way you think, and then it comes to how do you sway other people's beliefs as well?
And to me, they're the two most important skills that you need to have if you were to succeed in this world. And some people do it by accident, by happenstance. I want to teach people how to do it on purpose. And from my travels to the likes of North Korea and, Afghanistan, and Rwanda, I've learned a lot about propaganda, interviewing people there, understanding the way in which what happened there happened.
Studying, cults, brainwashing. I even did some deprogramming for people that were in cults when I was a therapist many years ago. I did my master's thesis on gurus. Belief is everywhere. It's an area I'm really fascinated with. And what I decided to do was bring it into the corporate arena so that leaders can really gain great traction and drive high performance by cultivating belief in, like I said, ideas that make a real difference, in the world.
[00:06:45] Mike Goldman: I love this. And, everything that, I focus on in this show is the leadership team, all about how to build a better leadership team. With that point of view, let's get under the covers of that a little bit, and talk about the role of the CEO in all of this, and more specifically, to put it in a different way, summarize what you just said; it's not the challenge of a CEO, and a leadership team, is not to make decisions to come up with the right strategy. Sure. That's a challenge, but in the grand scheme of things, that's pretty easy. The hard part is getting people to execute
[00:07:24] Owen Fitzpatrick: Sure.
[00:07:24] Mike Goldman: Consistently on that strategy. So what would you tell a CEO that has, come down from the mountain with a brand new strategic plan? What specific things should they and their leadership team do differently to get people to execute, to get people to believe so they can execute? What do they actually need to do differently than what they typically do?
[00:07:31] Owen Fitzpatrick: I think typically what they do today is if they're not very advanced, if they're not very well, learned, what they'll typically do is they'll just say, this is the strategy, and they'll just roll it out, right? And they'll say, oh, by the way, everyone, this is what we're doing.
And they'll expect everyone to jump on board. And if they don't, they're what we call difficult employees, right? And, they don't understand why. Now the problem that you have with that is that you don't just have a group of the same individuals. You have a group of disparate individuals with different personalities; add to that generations, add to that generation Y, add to that Generation Z, right? Or de generation Y, stroke millennials, or Generation Z, right? Generation X, all of these different generations prioritize different things. And so if you're trying to tell everybody, this is your strategy, Then you can't expect everyone to just go, okay, no problem, because they're not robotic like that.
Everyone is human. And if we don't treat them that way, then we're not gonna be able to get the message across.
Now, if you're more advanced, then what you do is you turn around, and you go; we need to motivate the workforce. and so what you do is you look up motivation 101, whether you go to, the, Maslow's Hierarchy of needs or whether you stick with, the basics of giving them a sense of autonomy, giving them a sense of purpose, all great stuff, right?
So you motivate them, and you help them to feel inspired to do it. The problem is motivation, and Zig Zigler talks about this, motivation is like a bath. You need to do it every day. And so motivating people to do things is one thing, but if you want consistency and you want this to be something that they keep at, and they do during the tough times, during the good times, during all sorts of times. They need to believe in it. Because the problem is I can motivate myself to do any action. For example, I want to get fit. So I decide I'm motivating myself in this new fitness regime. Great. For the first two months, I'm fine. Why? Because I'm motivated. I'm thinking about what I want. I'm imagining the six-pack, right?
And not the six-pack of beer. Cause I know that's where your mind went first, Mike, but you're thinking about the six-pack. But once you get to the point, there's gonna be a point sooner or later where you just go, ah, sure. It'll be fine like you get to a stage where motivation wanes. And then what you need when motivation wanes is you need the discipline and the routines, and that's what gets you doing it, regardless of how you feel.
But behind the discipline and routine, behind that kind of action. In order for you to be consistent with something, you have to believe in it. Because what the research shows is when we believe in something, when we have a deep conviction in something, we will keep doing it forever. That's why people, still go to church, every single week, come rain, sleet or snow; they'll do it because that's what they believe, right?
People are driven to do all sorts of things because they're convinced of a particular form of action. So as a belief leader, what you're trying to be able to do is to cultivate the conditions both mentally and environmentally, socially, whereby the people that are going to execute this strategy are 100% behind it and believe in it. And that's different to motivating them; it's even different to persuading them. It's like more an advanced form of persuading cuz persuading them is going, yes, this is a good idea, but just cuz I know it's a good idea doesn't mean I'm committed to it. Commitment comes from conviction, and so the way you will get people convinced that this is something that they absolutely wanna do and need to do and have to do; it means that you've gotta start to think about how this is done in terms of all other areas of life.
So if we draw from propaganda, if we draw from huge examples of movements that change the world. There's a number of things that those movements have in common, and we can incorporate some of those lessons in such a way that leaders can implement them and use them and apply them when they try to engage in change management or when they try to deliver, a particular strategy over the course of a 12 months or 18 months or however long the strategy is.
So what I do is I work with them and help them to be able to make sure that they're thinking through what these people need to hear and feel and know in order for those people to be able to execute by committing 100% to it. And that comes from their belief. So I help them to cultivate belief in that strategy so that strategy's executed consistently. Does that make sense?
[00:12:05] Mike Goldman: Yeah. and I wanna keep diving deeper.
[00:12:08] Owen Fitzpatrick: Sure.
[00:12:08] Mike Goldman: Cuz I, I wanna get to a point where, Someone listening to this says, ah, here's a specific thing that I'm gonna go do. Because most leaders that I work with are not that at first. You still have some of those; you do it because I'm paying you
[00:12:21] Owen Fitzpatrick: Sure.
[00:12:21] Mike Goldman: know, you do it because I'm yelling loud enough, you're gonna go do it. But most leaders, that I work with, and I think most people listening to this or probably along the lines of, Hey, I'm gonna, he, here's our three-pronged strategy. Here's our, here are our four big priorities for the year.
And I'm gonna explain to people why it's important and how it's gonna help the business and why it's important to them. And then I'm gonna, give them some, autonomy, mastery, purpose, I'm gonna do all those things. what's a specific thing, that a C E O should be doing in addition? To them. Cause most of these folks have read all the books. what's something specific they ought to be adding
[00:13:01] Owen Fitzpatrick: Sure.
[00:13:01] Mike Goldman: That they're probably not doing today?
[00:13:03] Owen Fitzpatrick: So let me just unpack a framework that I like to use, and then I'll give you the specifics you're looking for, Mike. The framework I like to use is whenever I think about, cultivating belief; one of the frameworks I like to use is a thing called scaled right?
And this is something that I built. based upon looking at what is done whenever we do fundamentally transform our beliefs. and I recognize like when you have a big movement happening, not everyone is as is hot for the movement. So there's some people that are absolutely obsessed with it. They eat, they drink, they sleep, it, their whole being is about this movement.
Their whole being is about this religion. Their whole being is about everything, right? Then there's people that believe in it and, do the actions regularly, but they're not as, hot or warm for it. And then there's people that believe in it and do the stuff, but they're not, they're not as not nearly as warm as the folk that are like obsessed.
And you're gonna get different types of people. So I'm not saying that everyone that you work with is going to be 100%. Nor would you want them to. You want to be able to have the different, types of drives at different levels. But the, framework that I use is what I call scaled. And, the S stands for story.
I'll unpack these briefly in a moment, but it's story, community, action, logic, emotion, and drive. And so when we look at, I'll go backwards for a second. The drive is the motivation to want to believe in this notion. In other words, if I believe in this is going to be beneficial for me. So what a lot of the research in neuroscience and psychology suggests around belief is understanding whether or not a person believes in something is largely influenced, like our beliefs are largely influenced by whether or not we want to believe in that idea. So you can predict with a high significance, how lightly a person is to believe it based upon whether or not they really want to believe it. So we tend to want to believe, like if I want to believe that you're actually a nice person, Mike, which is a very difficult thing to do, then I will want, I will want to believe that.
And then I'm able to give you, and we even say it in language, the benefit of the doubt, right? So I want to believe in you; therefore, I am gonna believe in you. Therefore, it's easier for you to persuade me as a result.
[00:15:14]Mike Goldman: it's like someone who normally watches CNN may mistakenly flip on Fox News.
[00:15:21] Owen Fitzpatrick: Yeah.
[00:15:21] Mike Goldman: Hear something. Yeah. And they automatically don't want to believe it, so they're not gonna.
[00:15:28] Owen Fitzpatrick: Correct. and vice versa. you're watching Tucker Carlson, right? And then you turn the channels to NBC or whatever it is, and Rachel Meadow, right? That's literally like driving; that's like driving in one direction and then immediately moving the gear stick.
Or, if it's automatic, going straight into reverse when you're going in one direction. discombobulating, right? is a soft way of putting it. And so immediately, confirmation bias kicks in. And confirmation bias basically means we look for evidence to prove our conclusions are true, and we dismiss evidence that contradicts them.
So I'm looking at, let's say, Tucker, I'm looking at, whoever it is on, on, CNN and I'm, let's say, bought into it, and then I ch change the channel. And now, all of a sudden, that information, which is conflicting with my core beliefs, I'm rejecting it based on principle. I don't want to believe it.
And sometimes we don't even listen to it because of who the person is. So sometimes we figure out, oh, they support this politician. Whatever comes out of their notes, we're already discounting. We're already, we've got our skeptical mindset on, and we're discounting everything that the person says.
[00:16:32] Mike Goldman: Which, by the way, for me means, and I just ran across a situation like this, if you've got a team and, for whatever reason, the CEO has lost the trust of the organization, it's no wonder that no matter what they do, no matter what they say, could be all of the right things, they're gonna get pushback, they're gonna get apathy at best, revolt at, at worst, because of that confirmation bias.
Because, oh, I, yeah, what he says to me may seem like it makes logic, makes logical sense, but I'm sure there's something underneath that I'm not seeing.
[00:17:12] Owen Fitzpatrick: and the only chance that they have of redeeming themselves is to be able to acknowledge what everyone is already thinking, right?
To be able to call out and to show, look, I get it. And to be able to spell out what's on everyone's head. Because again, if everyone's already discounting it, the only possible way back is for you to figure out what you know that they'll agree with, which is the very thing that is the very reason why they're discounting you in the first place. So you get a chance to connect it.
But that D that drive; we're driven to wanna believe certain things. So you have to be able to sell the belief. So you think to yourself, what is the belief? The belief is this strategy is going to be the most effective, way forward, right? So let's say, for example, if you're in, an organization and you say, look, what we need to be doing now is we need to, instead of sticking with a core business, that's gonna be obsolete in five years.
So what we need to do is we need to start to adjust. The direction that we're going in. And we need to start to offer a different form of solution. or let's say, for example, we're always being agency based. We need to be more consultative. Now, like when you decide on that strategy, it's not enough for you to tell people.
It's not even enough for you to motivate them. You have to get them to believe in that idea. And part of that is getting them to want to believe it. So what are the benefits for them? and what are the reasons not to believe it if they don't believe in it or if they don't do it? What are the dangers?
What are the dangers with sticking with an agency model? What are the dangers with sticking with this, Opportunity that you have at the moment that won't exist in five years? So drive is one, then the L and the E, right? Of the scaled model, the L is logic and the E is emotion, and they're the two vehicles of persuasion.
This is back to Aristotle's time, right? Aristotle talked about three forms,of appeal in rhetoric, right? Ethos, which is the credibility of the speaker. So that's how you position yourself, log us, which is appeal by logic. So this is what most of us are great at. And then pathos, which is appeal by emotion.
And so in business, a lot of my time, and I don't care, I don't care how, numbered, or how fact and fiy or how statistically you, your, business is. It doesn't matter how technical it is. I've worked with very technical companies. I've worked with, government institutions, right? Whereby it's all policy and regulation, whatever doesn't matter.
Logic is important, but emotion always factors in. It always does. Being right is not enough. If you wanna succeed, if you wanna thrive, if you wanna get results, you can't rely on logic. You can't rely on rationale. You can rely on reason. Do you need it? Sure you do, but it's not enough. You need emotion. And emotion is how you make people feel.
So it's one thing to get them to want to believe it, but they have to have positive feelings that are associated with believing in it. They have to have the driving force that gets them to, have positive experiences and associations. You gotta prime them so that when they think about this strategy moving forward, they think about this change, they want to do it, and all of the positive feelings that they feel are associated with them taking action and all of the negative feelings that they feel are associated with not taking action.
And that's if you will, a consistent motivation piece. And then we get the S, the C, and the A. And this is really where the magic lies. Our beliefs are formed through the stories we tell ourselves through the community we surround ourselves with and through the actions we take. And so let's take the stories we tell ourselves.
We live in the stories that we tell ourselves. We live in the worlds that we build for ourselves. And What I noticed as a therapist was, and this by the way, is the same as in executive coaching. When I do executive coaching, I'm hearing the same patterns. When people have problems, they come to me in one of two places.
Either A, the victim of their circumstances, or B, they're the villain of their circumstances. The victims of their circumstances is, woe is me. It's not fair. My leadership team is just a mess. The companies, my board members are on me back. I don't have the resources. The recession is stopping me.
There's all a million reasons why they can't succeed. They're the victims of where they are or other people are. I'm not sure I have what it takes. imposter syndromes creeping up in me. I'm constantly doubting myself. I've never done this before. Everyone else seems to have it together, and when you unravel it, most times they either say their problems are because the world is unfair, or because I'm not good enough.
They either blame the world or they blame themselves. And so what I do with what I used to do as a therapist, what I still do as an executive coach is I help them to transform themselves in the story to see themselves as a hero. Cuz the hero has just as much bad stuff happen to them as the victim or the villain. They just learn and turn it around. The hero starts as a victim impacted by whatever goes on. Luke Skywalker was a victim before he blew up the debt. Star, starry, I should have said spoilers, but he was a victim at the very beginning, because of what happened, right? And what we need to recognize is that by choosing to be the hero of Ron's story, we can transform it.
But it's not just about that, it's about the whole story. So if I'm implementing a strategy, getting back to the specific example, if I'm a leader and I want to implement this strategy, one of the things I've gotta ask and myself is what are the stories? That the team are telling themselves about this strategy because if I just get them to do and force them to do it, they're telling a story as we're the victims of the monstrous leadership team, the exact team telling us this is what we have to do.
Or sometimes when I've been brought in to deliver trainings or whatnot or say motivation or motivational keynote or whatever, they go, you're bringing this person in to rev us up, or to ram us up. But ultimately speaking, we don't believe in this. So it's, it's again, the story they're telling will filter how they experience the change.
So I would be asking myself, what kind of propaganda, positive propaganda campaign do we need to cultivate so that the stories that they tell themselves are conducive towards them being open to really believing in this idea. And if you think about it, that's how propaganda works. When you, when I went to North Korea, people said to me, oh, it must have been fascinating to, experience propaganda firsthand that I said, when you live anywhere, when you live in the states, the only difference between America and North Korea, and I'm talking purely from an actual messaging point of view,
[00:23:23]Mike Goldman: be careful, you're very close, you're getting in trouble.
[00:23:26] Owen Fitzpatrick: I was gonna say, not from a human rights point of view, per se. But the main difference is you've got two sides here, as opposed to. You've got the left and the right, and I know I'm being reductive to a degree, but my point is, you've got an, you've got two core narratives in this country, and then in North Korea, you've got one core narrative, right?
And so the narrative is communicated by the stories and the assumptions that are implicit in those stories. And so as a leader,what I work with people to do is how can they understand fundamentally the many different forms of opinion, attitude, how people are going to receive this, and how can we create a story that is what I call anti-fragile enough?
And that means, chaos or adversity or challenger, whatever, only makes it stronger. So for example, if you believe in God and something bad happens to you, it doesn't affect your belief in God. Sometimes it actually makes your belief in God stronger. That's what we call an anti-fragile belief. it's not subjected, like if I believe in myself and someone rejects me and that I don't, that's not an anti-fragile belief.
That's an emotive belief or emotional belief. So what kind of story can you tell that is anti-fragile enough that it, no matter what happens along the way, or no matter what their opinions were, it still brings everyone into the point that they fundamentally believe this. And this could be like, give them lots of examples of, stories of where you want to go and how that would look, or examples of the kind of behaviors you want and examples of what we don't want and the reasoning for it. But it's all couched in story.
Then when you get community, the people you surround yourself with are you know, are going to have an influence in your beliefs.
So we know about conspiracy theories for example, that when you surround yourself with people or even online with people that believe the same thing, you're much more likely to hold views. We tend to hold views that are, that's why we like to turn on Fox News if we already believe in that narrative or we like to see c n if we already believe in it.
So we like to surround ourselves with that. So again, how can you cultivate the community in your team that gets them all on-site and gets them influencing each other in a positive way? And then the final part is actions. And this is, again, underrated, James Clear, the author of Atomic Habits, he's a nice way of putting it.
He says, every time you engage in an action, it's a vote for the person you wanna become. And so we don't just, beliefs don't just drive behaviors. Behaviors can also drive beliefs. The consistent things you do day to day. Your brain, when you cultivate your identity, which is your belief of who you are.
Your brain looks to the actions you're taking. If you're exercising all the time, you start to see yourself as the kind of person who exercises. So if you can work with the actions they're taking, and just like the rituals of going to church or the actions or the rituals of, meeting up for the charity that you work with, if you can create actions or rituals or routines that compliment the kind of beliefs that you want people to have, that can also very much influence the identity they have so that they become more onsite.
So I know I unpack quite a lot of stuff, obviously, when I'm working with organizations. I got more time and I'm working with specific issues to help them to create real transformation. But I hope give that gives you a sort of a
[00:26:40] Mike Goldman: Yeah, no,I love, to me that scaled model almost becomes, and I'm oversimplifying, but maybe over only a little bit. It almost comes a checklist.
[00:26:46] Owen Fitzpatrick: Yeah.
[00:26:47] Mike Goldman: are we thinking about all these things? And the other thing I'll add to what you said, but you tell me if you agree, is it's easy to think about all of this. Let's talk about stories in community. The first two, it's easy to think about all of this as, I have to understand the stories other people have in their head. I've gotta influence their stories. I've gotta make sure I'm creating the right community for them. That's reinforcing, of course. But I think it starts by that leader looking in the mirror.
[00:27:20] Owen Fitzpatrick: Yeah.
[00:27:20] Mike Goldman: Because very often a leader is, and there are situations right now I've got companies I'm dealing with, given the economy or going through some pretty tough times right now. And they're in a situation, it's the old, Stockdale paradox, right? They're in a situation of, we're gonna confront the brutal truth, and at the same time, we're gonna have this unwavering of belief, belief that we're gonna win. But sometimes that's just lip service and it, and if the leader, whether that's c e o or VP of sales, or c o, if the leader isn't telling themselves the right story, if they're not as a CEO, that's going through a challenging time.
If they don't have the right community of other CEOs, whether that's something like Y P O or a Mastermind group or Vistage or EO or the right set of friends, I think it's gotta start with almost doing as a leader, doing that checklist on yourself, because it's only when you have begun to master that, That you could actually sway other people.
[00:28:26] Owen Fitzpatrick: Sure. a hundred percent. I think that the key is whenever you're a leader, and you're making a lot of decisions about, what's going to happen in your team or your organization and whatnot, that looking in the mirror, self-awareness is obviously one of the most critical skills.
The problem is a lot of the people that need to be more self-aware are not self-aware enough, that they're not self-aware, and so the challenge they're in becomes, the very people that are like, I wanna become more self-aware, are self-aware enough to know that they need to work on their self-awareness.
And the real challenge then is, You want to get somebody to be more aware of themselves and their own story or narrative; you need these kinds of tools to be able to go into it. Because when you go in and let's say, for example, Mike, I know you're hired, and you go in, and you do incredible work with leadership teams, right?
Helping them to be able to perform at the highest level possible. But a lot of the stuff that you do intuitively is you have to be able to get them communicating, and you're able to ask the right pertinent questions at the right time to be able to get them to become aware of the stories that they're telling, that they were very unconscious of beforehand.
And so the way in which you're giving them that self-awareness is not by telling people you need to become self-aware. It's actually through you asking the questions that get them to unpack what their assumptions and beliefs were. So they were inside their head. and they were playing this scenario where, for example, they could be over the top at missed, optimistic.
They could be going, oh, this is gonna work because it's working for everyone else. Wrong or overly negative. this is never gonna work wrong. So you have people on the leadership team, some of who are going to be very much more positive in general. Some are gonna be more negative, and both will be right about certain things, but neither of those are accurate beliefs.
They're just different sets of beliefs that are useful in some ways and not useful in others. believing better, believing more useful, building a model of the world that allows you to perform more effectively.So when I say believe better, notice, I'm not saying believe more positively. I'm not saying believe more negative. I'm saying
And that model needs to be as accurate as possible, but not necessarily about realistic. Cuz, when we use the word realistic, the problem with that, is what's realistic for me is different in what's realistic for you. So, therefore, we're already limiting ourselves with this notion of realism. Everything to a degree is also what we call effective realism based on how you feel.
If I feel in a bad mood, what's realistic to me is different to if I'm in a good mood. So what we need to do is figure out what's useful and what's the most useful, empowering belief that I need to have myself. What's the most useful story I need to tell myself that allows me to perform at the level I need to and allows me to get my team performing at the level they are?
And that means a proper story. And a story is not Pollyanna, went to the ball and got married, right? It's not this beautiful story about everything working out the way it is cuz that's not life. Nor is it, everything went wrong, it's so unfair. And she ended up, taking her life. Both of those are extremist things, but we tend to catastrophize.
That's what we do in therapy. It's what we do in the business world. We go, everything's this way, everything's that way. And what I try to get people to do is recognize the story that you tell yourself needs to factor in the negative, right? We need to recognize there. Every hero goes through a struggle and whenever we face those challenges and we're able to see things more clearly,
the story we tell ourselves incorporate the very obstacles that get in our way, and that's what also builds trust. Because when you share those stories, if I share the story and I try to say, and here's the big mistake, if I try to share the story of how great the strategy will be, guess what? A lot of the people that I'm trying to say it to will be thinking, it's not gonna be like that.
It's not gonna be easy, it's not gonna work out. But if I acknowledge, the difficulty, the challenge, if I acknowledge the obstacles, if I acknowledge the adversity we face along the way, and I give them a narrative whereby they imagine in the vision themselves facing it and dealing with the challenges and learning from it and overcoming the adversity, now we're off to the races, right?
Because I'm speaking to them in a story form that they agree with, that they can go, I can get behind that because they're speaking the truth. And again, in the business world, people tend to, either move, very seamlessly from realism, which is a euphemism for negativity or, optimism, which is we can do everything.
Everything's gonna go well. No it's not. No, it's not. No. As soon as you think you're getting traction, some bad thing will happen. And so it's a little bit like the stoics, philosophy. The recession isn't the worst thing in the world for everybody. And a thriving economy is not the best thing for everybody.
It's how you deal with it. You figure out the ups and downs and you ensure your story is ready for those and helps you to be able to figure out what you need to.
[00:33:35] Mike Goldman: so as a leader, there are times when you are motivating the group. There are times where you're motivating an individual and the best leaders understand that everybody's different. People are gonna be motivated in different ways. How does belief leadership believing better, how does that impact how do I wanna say this? what portion of that. up in front of a room motivating 150 people in your organization versus, no, everybody's got their own story. So I've gotta do this one-on-one.
How much of this requires a leader to become, not a therapist, but how much of this requires a leader to become a better coach of individuals in addition to getting up in front of a room and motivating the group?
[00:34:31] Owen Fitzpatrick: I would suggest it's not so much like a percentage thing, and it's not even just about them becoming a coach. It's about them becoming, a person of influence. I'm deliberately avoiding the word influencer cuz it's been hi hijacked quite terribly that, if I call you an influencer, it's like you're, dancing, I'm on TikTok on the table to TikTok. Exactly. Which I think honestly mate,I'm excited about when you're going to start your TikTok dancing videos.
I think that'll be a look it up, To be held. but I think that we need to be people of influence because it's not just about coaching. Coaching is very important and to me, coaching is one of the differences between being a manager and a, and a leader, right? so I think coaching is a critical skill.
I also think though, you need to be a person of influence. And what that means is, at an individual style, yes, you understand the person, but it's not just about motivating them. As I said, the difference between motivating and conviction is the motivation wears off whenever the tough times come, or whenever they're bored, whenever they believe in something, doesn't matter whether they're motivated or not, they're still taking action because they fundamentally believe in that.
And the only way to do that is to be a person of influence and individually when you're talking to them, not just to give them the six, seven, 10 reasons why they should do something, which is the logical piece, but also to make them feel good about it, right? To motivate them, like with the drive piece, and then to be able to get them to be thinking in terms of the actions that they need to take moving forward.
that is the, like the action part, what community they need to surround themselves with and knowing whether or not that they're gonna have an influence on them. And that also means, from a leadership perspective, paying attention to the negative. not even the negative cuz just because someone's quite disagree, disagreeable doesn't make them particularly problematic. Sometimes that could be a huge advantage, but it's getting them to be aware of the potential problem people that. Erp or stop or be an obstacle to the messaging that you're trying to disseminate across the floor. You don't want somebody in there that's causing it. And so part of your job from an individual perspective is not just to motivate them, but to influence them and to influence them in a deep way to the point that they're on board and they're ready for, and here's the crucial piece.
They're ready for the challenges. So I don't just want, for example, my salespeople to go out there in, into the thing and be ready to, do a song and dance, to be able to persuade people. I want them ready for the objections. I want them to be ready for the hard questions. And I want them to believe so much in the product, or service, that when they're asked those things, they're unfazed.
They're unflappable. Now, when it comes to motivating the big group of people, so when I do keynotes, and I do quite a lot of keynotes on this, I'm more so getting people to recognize the power that they have, over their own brain, over their own beliefs, right? When I say believe better, I'm first talking about you.
I'm first talking about you individually, deciding that you're not going to become the victim of your own stories, that you're not gonna find yourself stuck in a mental pattern or a set of mindsets that entrap you or prevent you from being as effective as you can possibly be. What I try to do is get people to believe first and foremost in what I call the belief growth mindset.
So the belief growth mindset is, a sort of a another version of what we call the growth mindset, made famous by Professor Carol Dweck of Stanford University, the books back there somewhere. There you go. Exactly. So where she basically said, there's people that have what we call a fixed mindset where they believe this is, my level of intelligence, it'll always be nothing I can do, or this is my level of ability, in this area, and then people with a growth mindset who believe they can grow and develop get better. The belief growth mindset is for me; taking that one step further, it is whenever you believe that you can update your beliefs, and in fact updating your beliefs is a good thing. So a simple example that me and you have talked about before is I was telling you an example of. Me, being introduced to a group of people a while back, and I had a certain immediate response where I believed that these people would, not be my cup of tea or whatever, and I had a certain mindset about that. But as I arrived and as I got to know them, I updated and changed my beliefs.
I, in other words, I was wrong. And that ability to be able to get things wrong, I have that ability because I've worked so hard on cultivating this belief growth mindset. I know a lot of other people wouldn't have been wrong. They would've found reasons as to why they didn't like people. They would've looked for everything.
They would've used confirmation bias to be able to direct that. And what I did instead was I was able to go. I'm wrong here. and the reason I'm able to do that is I was able to update my beliefs because fundamentally, I adopted this belief growth mindset. It's like this meta belief that makes all of your other beliefs, more open to transformation, more open to change, and giving yourself the permission to be able to be open to that allows you to be able to believe better because you aren't stuck with whatever beliefs your unconscious has given you for that moment.
So I think that's something really important that I would do When I'm speaking to a large group of people, I'd be getting them to recognize you are not limited in terms of beliefs that you have. You just have to recognize the difference between what as knowledge and what's actually a belief if, again, there's lots of ways, but so what I'm getting at is you're not motivating a big audience. You're getting them to fundamentally have a different perspective, which allows them to be able to update their own beliefs.
[00:39:54] Mike Goldman: So I wanna go back to the individual, not the group. And that individual, let's say it's the CEO, who is, has been going through a difficult 12 months. They start to lose the belief that they could make this happen. They don't wanna show that to their team cuz they know that's gonna just demoralize the team.
But they start to believe that it's not gonna happen. They start to, to get discouraged, overwhelmed, not quite burnt out, but man close to getting there. What's something a leader can do as an individual to, with that belief growth mindset? to get their head back in the game because they're only gonna be able to fake it for so long.
And if they don't believe it, there's no way their people are gonna believe it. H how do you get yourself out of that rut of that, I won't call it a bad belief or a negative belief, but it's certainly a disempowering belief.
[00:41:03] Owen Fitzpatrick: Sure. so at that moment, what I do is I give the, a leader, I'd say, look it, it's time to make the pivotal decision, right? And the pivotal decision is, are you gonna give up? Cuz? Cuz really there's two options here, right? You either A, give up, or B, you do everything you can to make it work. Now, along the line you can have certain criteria that says, if it's not working by this time, that's when I'll give up. But you have to decide, am I giving up or am I gonna go for it?
Once you make that fundamental first choice, give up, throw it in the towel, move on, whatever, or gonna go for it. If you decide to go for it. Then you ask yourself a simple question, what belief is most likely to get me to where I need to get to? and again, from a drive point of view, what's the one that I want to believe in?
Because if I do believe in it, it's gonna get me the results I'm looking for. So you choose what is the most u and the most useful belief is never, I think I'm gonna believe that my team is probably not gonna be able to do it, and I'm not gonna be able to do it. And this is gonna be a nightmare, and this is gonna be a torturous few months.
Yeah, I think that'll motivate me. That's the equivalent of saying, go out, play this,you're going out for a game, a football. and beforehand the coach comes and says, Hey, just to let you know, we're gonna get cocked here. There's no chance they're way better than us. forget about it. we can try. Just try not to humiliate yourself too much. Okay, guys. All right. There's the team talk. Go ahead and do it Now. When we hear that it's ridiculous, we would never do that. But yet, That's the kind of stuff we do to ourselves.
And so when you make that pivotal decision and you go, okay, I am gonna go for it, then you ask yourself, what is the belief I need in order to get me there?
Because just like we have like financial investments in something, Mike, I invest this money. If I want to increase my marketing, I gotta invest in marketing. Make sense? if you wanna be able to take action, you've gotta invest belief investment is just as important as financial investment is just important in time investment.
So I invest belief into this. Now that, that begs the question, but, okay, but how, once you've decided that I need to believe in this belief and you're updating your belief growth mindset means that you're open to being able to believe in something new, then you've gotta start to work on what are the things I need to do in order to make this true?
And so what are the actions that I would take if I was convinced that it was gonna work out? What are the, who are the people I would surround myself with? If I was convinced that this, we were all convinced that this was gonna work out, what the stories I would tell myself, even, you imagine yourself in the future.
What story, if you succeeded, would you tell yourself about where you are and how you got to where you need to get to, right? If you succeeded, right? Logic, what are all, what's all the evidence that suggests why you're going to be successful? Emotion, what are the feelings that you need to feel in order for you to be successful and then drive what value will believing this be to you?
In other words, if you believe this versus believing that you can't, what is the delta between those two? when when you use that and I'm just giving you that as an example of a framework, but if you think about how powerful that is, that totally changes the game cuz it's no longer what most people do, which is, I don't believe we can do it. I think we should,I should believe we can do it, but I don't, but I don't know. And we're playing the wrong game. We're playing this game of trying to find out the fact, you're trying to predict the future, and you're assuming that there is an answer.
But every, our brains are designed not to keep us, not to keep us happy or confident. They're designed to keep us alive by prediction. And predictions by their very nature are not always gonna be accurate. Our predictions, we, our brain creates a model of the world to try to predict what's gonna happen next so that we know what to do to survive. But our brains can sometimes lie to us, and that's why we make mistakes sometimes.
And so to bring all this together in order for us to be able to believe in the team and believe in our ability to do something, it's not enough for us to try to convince ourselves with logic. We need to think about the whole package. How do most beliefs change? And remember, belief is an idea we feel certain about.
It's not logic. It's a belief that we feel certain about. And so when you change the story, you change the community, you change the actions, and you bring all of that behind you. That's how you build and cultivate a belief. That's how you cultivate conviction. That's how you drive forward, and that's how you're able to handle whatever comes your way.
Because no matter what happens, you're ready for it because you've got this anti-fragile story, you've got this consistent set of actions. You've got this strong community that helps you to do it no matter what.
[00:45:44] Mike Goldman: I love that. and I keep going back to that scaled model, and I love what you said about, in order to get where you want to go, what would you have to believe and then what actions would you have to take?
To me, that's so much more empowering. Come up with some belief you don't really believe right now, and look in the mirror and say it over and over again until you change the neural pathways in your brain. I'm all for affirmations. I use them. Yeah. but this is something, the affirmation is the action you're taking that keeps reinforcing that belief.
[00:46:17] Owen Fitzpatrick: Yeah, exa. And the thing is, Mike, like there's an awful lot of bullshit out there with regards to af affirmations if we're being honest, right? Because this notion of if I just repeat every day and every way, I'm getting better and better. if you sit on your couch and you're eating, potato chips and you're eating pizza, and you're snorting cocaine, right? And you're saying every day and every way, I'm getting better and better, by the way,
[00:46:34] Mike Goldman: I don't do it in that order.
[00:46:39] Owen Fitzpatrick: It's , you're not getting better and better, right? So it's like Jim Rowan used to say the wonderful motivational speaker. He goes, I don't believe in affirmations except Affirm the truth. He goes, if you're overweight, look at the mirror and say, I'm overweight, because it's reminding you of what you need to do in order for you to be able to take action. affirmations and affirmations have their place. Why? Because when you're saying it, hopefully you'll start to buy into it more.
But I don't know about you, but. Whenever I would say something positive, my brain always has that other side, right? Maybe it's an Irish thing. Maybe it's just an Owen thing. But whenever I say something, whenever I say something positive, there's the other voice that goes, come on. I've got that cynical edge. So it's you are gonna do great at this. Yeah. But what if you don't Like, there's always that dialogue. And it's not just a dialogue, it's a multi-log. There's different voices. It's a whole,
[00:47:25] Mike Goldman: you should probably do a TED talk on that. That might,
[00:47:29] Owen Fitzpatrick: I should actually, yeah. Maybe I could talk
[00:47:31] Mike Goldman: for those that don't know. That's what his Ted talk was all about.
[00:47:33] Owen Fitzpatrick: Yeah. so that, but that's the thing, Mike, so I have the voices and me just saying the positive is not gonna convince, it's the equivalent of repeating over and over again to an audience of dissenters. You can do what you could do and then go, no, we can't. No we can't. No, we can’t. At the end of the day, they're not convinced. If you wanna convince them, you gotta understand where they're coming from. You gotta listen to them. You gotta listen to your own mind, and you gotta be able to pay attention to the stories so that you can make it so that it is something that they can believe in.
And when I'm talking to myself, the reason I don't, I'm not a big fan of just affirmations, is because I've got the negative affirmations as well. And so by instead, changing and looking at the stories and then taking the actions, because no, if I'm exercising every day, it doesn't matter if my brain is saying, You're a lazy person; eventually the brain starts to sound like a bullshitter.
It starts to go, he's exercising every day. Yeah, but you're lazy. Okay, I'm a lazy athlete. there's a certain point where the voice just loses all credibility. But that happens from actions. It happens from being surrounded by people. On the outside cultivate an environment that, that reinforces that.
And it also happens from, the stories that we tell ourselves and being more accurate and being more, clever with how we frame our stories. So we're incorporating the naysayers, we're incorporating the objections, we're incorporating that because if we fail to acknowledge them, then they have more power. sorry. If we fail to acknowledge them, and they still stick around, they have more power because we're trying to ignore them when we bring them in and we go, yeah,here's the thing. And then we are able to cultivate our craft a story which incorporates them, but still leads us to, in the direction we wanna go in.
That's when we're empowered. and to me, that's why when I call it belief leadership, it really is about leading people to have more empowering beliefs. Leading yourself and leading the people that you work with. And,that's why I'm so excited about it, mate. It's because. This stuff is so effective.
But yet so many people are just trying to out, argue everyone as if we're all in, the world debating championship. And if you could just use enough reason and rationale and if anybody is actually tuned into media or social media and things that reason, reason is the secret to success. good for you,
[00:49:57] Mike Goldman: I love it. And what you're talking about is so important today for, with guess with everything going on today and, economy, getting people down and war in the Ukraine and COVID and whatever else you can imagine. And the fact that you've got, you got the old guys like me that are like, oh, these young people, that they don't wanna work and they don't wanna, it's not, they need a reason. They need a purpose. When back, I'm 58, back when I was. 22 years old and I went to work to a, for a big management consulting firm. My attitude was, you could beat me, whip me, kick me, work me 24 hours a day. I'm making partner. Yeah. Which by the way, I don't think was a healthy way to approach life, but you get a lot of folks that still feel that way. And then they look at the millennials and Gen Y or whatever, always forget which one is called what. but they look at that and they think, oh, these folks, they don't wanna work. They're not, no, we were willing to work just because we were getting paid. People need a reason.
People need to believe. People need this stories. Owen, and putting all this together, how do you work with clients? I can see so many, there's so many different great ideas here, but how do you work with clients to help them? Build that belief leadership and build a culture where this kind of things becomes a habit.
[00:51:14] Owen Fitzpatrick: so there's a couple of things. One, one quick response I wanted to give you in terms of the, what you just mentioned about like different ages and different types of people. I think one of the big challenges is that when we try to convince people to believe in something, we operate based upon an assumption that there's a shared set of assumptions that the other people have like it.
In most cases, there is shared assumptions. We all have, we all make assumptions about the way the world works, the way society works, what's illegal, what's legal, what's moral, what's not. So we have all of these. The problem is we take that too far. And so when I'm trying to cultivate belief in someone who's young, right then, I'm assuming that they have the similar values to me, or they see the same point, or I'm assuming that they're motivated primarily by incentives or this is what's right because it's right for me or because it's right for my generation.
So when you were young, back in the 17th century, the world was the world was a very different place, right? and back then there was an awful lot of, there was a, the world was different in the 1970s and the 1980s before the internet. And as a result of that, it's not just technologically, the things are different, it's also in terms of values, right?
All you have to do is look at the research on, on, on Generation Z, and if you're an organization that doesn't prioritize, equity, diversity, inclusivity, environment, the importance of eco, ecological impact and environmental impact, if you don't prioritize that sort of stuff, it's going to be a real negative for an awful lot of the generation Z folk that you have working for you.
So I just wanted to address that cuz I think part of the work that I'm doing is you have to be strategic about how you come to the table. to answer your question, in terms of how I work with organizations, obviously in terms of the keynotes that I do, that's at one level. What I'm trying to do is get people empowered to go, you don't have to stick with the same ways of thinking that you have. Like we talk about mindsets. Mindsets are like a subset of beliefs. They’re are certain type of belief that we have, that are oriented around a particular notion. So even the fixed grow mindset, the belief, the fixed grow mindset is your belief about your abilities.
The belief growth mindset is your beliefs about your beliefs. there is stress mindset, your beliefs about stress. So you have all of these different things and these mindsets and the greater beliefs that hold them, determine the way you interact with the world. So when I do my keynotes, I'm trying to get people to have that fundamental grasp of how their brains.
And most importantly, what they can do about it. So with Believe better, I'm helping them to take charge of the way they think so they can create the kind of life they want with Sway better. I'm getting them to be aware of how their customers or how their team, or how the people that work for them think so they can transform the way other people think and believe they can change minds and for behave better.
I'm helping them to be able to cultivate new ways of working so that they can change their habits and change their actions, right? So when at one level I do keynotes, the other level is consulting. And that's really working with an organization based on a change initiative, right? Sometimes this is in Workshop Forum where I just, I'm teaching them the belief leadership, models or whatnot.
sometimes it's working on a specific issue or specific problem where I'm helping them to be able to go, okay, how do we get the whole organization behind this idea? How do we transform through adjusting our sales and marketing? How do we transform the beliefs that our customers have about who we are?
or about our brand or about our, products or services, right? Or how do we transform the way our leadership team feels about each other? How do we transform the way people, or even change management? How do we implement this change the way everyone's bought in? And so what I do is I work with them and some of it's individual, executive coaching, some of it's more group exec coaching, some of it's workshops.
But I'm tailoring each example to go, how can we ensure that the organization and the leadership team is able to really get traction and to install or instill these kinds of beliefs where they need to? a lot of the work I do is working one-to-one with leaders, helping them believe more in themselves, but there's so much more that can be done once we do this.
Work in various different ways. Like I said, keynotes and consulting would be the two primary ones. But it's less so about how I work, it's more so about the end result. And what I want people to do is be empowered to lead others to believe in what matters so that they can, make more of an impact in the world. And that's in essence what I do
[00:55:46] Mike Goldman: love it. And what I love about it is it's not just, you could look at this, simply say, oh, we'll be able to get more done, we'll be able to get more traction on what we're trying to do. Of course you will. But to me, taking this out, thinking about this within an organization, the culture of an organization where you've got a bunch of leaders that understand how to do this and they're imparting that understanding to everyone from the VP of sales down to an account receivable clerk.
The culture of an organization like that would just. Just a powerhouse. It'd attract great people to come work for 'em. So that's great, Owen. And if people wanna come find you, and I'll put this in the show notes too, but people wanna find you. How do they find you?
[00:56:27] Owen Fitzpatrick: owenfitzpatrick.com or LinkedIn as well. if you just type in my name, I come up pretty quick. and also by podcast Changing in Mind's podcast, you can also find an episode with, the wonderful Mike Goldman as well on my podcast where I interview Mike, so that's definitely worth checking out. but any of those three ways are good ways and,again, I just wanna say, Mike, thanks so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be on your podcast and as much, as I give you,give you a hard time. love the work that you do. I know like how valuable you are in the marketplace, how many, how much respect you command, and how, how good you are at your job. so a big thank you. It's the last compliment I'm ever gonna give you. I figured it may as well make it counts.
[00:57:06] Mike Goldman: I will, I'll accept that. I'll accept that as the last compliment. But hey, thanks. And one of these days, Owen and I, we talked about this. We're gonna figure out how to do a double podcast. His podcast, my show on the same show and That's gonna be crazy. we're gonna, it's gonna be a world-changing, like a chat GTP moment.
[00:57:29] Owen Fitzpatrick: Oh, that's right. Absolutely. could do a three-way with chat GTP as well. So at least one of the three of us will actually be saying something of about you.
[00:57:36] Mike Goldman: Owen. Thanks so much.
[00:57:38] Owen Fitzpatrick: Thanks a lot mate.
[00:57:40] Mike Goldman: Bye-Bye.