Flying in the Face of Fear with Kim “KC” Campbell
Watch/Listen here or on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts
“It's about being afraid and doing it anyway. It's about feeling the fear and taking action.”
— Kim “KC” Campbell
Focus Over Fear: The Power of Fear in Leadership
The importance of preparing, practicing, executing, and debriefing to build confidence in decision-making.
Debriefing involves discussing objectives, successes, mistakes, root causes of mistakes, and lessons learned
Success is attributed to preparation, practice, and planning for contingencies
Preparation Before The Situation
Preparation, practice, and planning for contingencies are crucial before a stressful event.
Preparation involves studying, visualizing, and thinking through the situation.
Practice can include chair flying or doing walkthroughs.
Planning for contingencies involves thinking about potential worst-case scenarios and what to do in those situations.
The same lessons from preparation, practice, and planning can be applied to personal and professional lives.
Feeling fear is normal, even for leaders, but putting in the work can help in dealing with fear and anxiety.
It's about being afraid and taking action anyway, feeling the fear and taking action.
When we don't prepare, we're more likely to freeze and not take action, putting our team/organization at risk.
Leaders should take specific actions to prepare, such as identifying potential risks and developing contingency plans.
Debriefing
Leaders should prepare, practice, plan for contingencies, execute, and debrief
Debrief is an opportunity to walk through lessons learned, identify mistakes and root causes, and determine what to do differently next time
Debriefing is important even when things go well, not just when there's a failure.
There is often more to learn from successes than just repeating the same actions.
Learning from successes can help teams identify what worked well and repeat it in the future.
Practice In The Business World
Practice is the opportunity to walk through a situation that you are going to face in advance
Quick team huddle is the answer when feeling short on time
Practice builds confidence and gives everyone a better understanding of how things will play out
Chair flying means sitting in a chair and thinking through all the critical steps
Practice time is the time to make mistakes and learn what we don't know
The Fighter Pilot Mindset
Fighter pilots strive for excellence and high performance through hard work.
The fighter pilot mindset is similar to a growth mindset, where mistakes are seen as opportunities for learning and improvement.
The team's success depends on each individual's performance, so there is a culture of challenging and pushing each other to excel.
In training, fighter pilots are intentionally put in situations where they make mistakes, which helps them learn and improve.
There is a deliberate review and analysis of every mission to achieve a higher level of performance.
Building Trust
Building trust is critical to ensure learning from mistakes and failures
Leaders should help team members understand their role and impact on the team's performance
Leaders should set an example by acknowledging mistakes and creating an environment where mistakes are learned from and not punished
It is important to create a culture where team members push and lift each other to elevate the team's performance
Understanding and valuing individual roles on the team is crucial to create a sense of being part of something bigger than oneself
Leaders should help team members understand the mission, vision, and values of the organization and how they contribute to it.
Civilian World VS Flying World
Experience matters, but ultimately everyone is passionate about getting better and learning from each other
Cadets and CEOs share the same fears of not meeting expectations and fear of the unknown
There is always something to learn and grow from, even at the peak of one's career
Thanks for listening!
Apply for a free coaching call with me
Get a Free Gift ⬇️
🆓 The limitless organization short video course
Connect with me
www.instagram.com/mikegoldmancoach/
www.facebook.com/mikegoldmancoach/
www.www.linkedin.com/in/mgoldman10/
I invite you to assess your team In all these areas by taking an online 30-question assessment for both you and your team at
-
Mike: Beautiful. All right. Here we go. Kim Casey Campbell served in the Air Force for 24 years as a fighter pilot and senior military leader. She's flown 1800 hours in the A-10 Warthog, including more than 100 combat missions, protecting troops on the ground in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
In 2003, Kim was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. For heroism after successfully recovering her battle damaged airplane after an intense close air support mission. Most recently Kim served as the Director of the Center for Character and Leadership Development at the Air Force Academy.
Kim is also the author of Flying In the Face of Fear A Fighter Pilot's Lessons on Leading With Courage. Kim. It's an honor, really an honor to have you on the show.
Thanks.
Kim: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.
Mike: All right, let's dive in. And I want to really spend our time talking about fear, courage, what you call the fighter pilot mindset. but before that, there's a story that I've heard you tell that's so kind of central to I think, how you know who you are and, some of the leadership philosophies that you have.
And, it's about obviously, that mission over Baghdad in 2003. So tell us about that. Tell us that story and then we'll talk about how it impacted you.
Kim: Yeah, absolutely. I think, like you said, it was definitely a defining moment in my life. I mean, it was one of those moments you never expect you're gonna find yourself in. I will tell you that as a Young Air Force Academy cadet, I never imagined that is something that I would have to do in my life.
But this was all about supporting our troops on the ground. And my mission as an A-10 pilot was to support our ground troops. And on April 7th, 2003, our ground troops were in Baghdad fighting their way through, and we were gonna do everything we could to support them. We took off from Kuwait, flew up to Baghdad.
Airy fueled and then waited for our tasking. Turns out we didn't have to wait long. We immediately got a call over the radio. Our ground troops were taking fire and they needed immediate assistance, as soon as I heard the call for a troops in contact, I feel like, you know, the hair on the back of my neck stood up.
My adrenaline was pumping because I knew that lives were on the the line. We were gonna do everything we could to get in there, but unfortunately the weather was terrible. We couldn't see the ground below, and we knew that it was gonna be a tough situation. But eventually we proceeded over the target area. My flight lead just kinda rolled inverted and disappeared through the clouds, hopped out down below the weather and said, all right, Casey, my call sign said, it's your your turn.
I looked for a hole in the clouds, dove down through, and as soon as I got down below the weather, I could see this firefight. I mean, there were bright flashes and tracers and smoke. Very surreal. I mean, our friendlies were on the west side of the Tigris River. The enemy was on the east side. They were firing rocket propelled grenades into our troops.
And I could see it all happening. It was exactly what we trained for, exactly what we prepare for, but still a bit surreal to actually see it play out. And then about that time I start to see these like puffs of gray and white smoke and then bright flashes are in the air right next to my cockpit. And I realize not only is there this firefight happen.
Back and forth across the river, but now the enemy was shooting up at us too but still we had a mission to do and we decided we would just do a couple passes, kind of climb up and reassess. And as I was coming off my last rocket pass, I just felt and heard a huge explosion at the back of the airplane, and I knew immediately I was hit.
The jet nosed over, pointed down at Baghdad below. I remember just instinctively just pulling back on the control stick and absolutely nothing happened and I was plunging to the ground totally out of control. I remember looking down at those ejection handles thinking, not yet. That is the last thing that I wanna do, is potentially eject into the hands of the enemy.
And so I knew I had to make every second count. I had to focus on taking action. Quickly tried to analyze what was going on. I had master caution light, caution panel lights. Eventually realized that the hydraulics were completely depleted, which is what we used to fly the airplane, and I knew that about this time my choices are eject or get the jet into our emergency backup system.
Thankfully, flip the switch and the airplane slowly just started to climb up and away from Baghdad. Let's say for me, that was the first moment where I really felt like I was going to make it out of there, or I had the possibility of making out of there alive.
Mike: Wow. and then what happened? I mean, did so we know you made it back alive or we wouldn't be having this conversation, but was it just okay, I'm good, smooth landing? Or?
Kim: Well that was like just the first part, right? That was like the first. Okay. Like I think I might make it out of here alive. But now I gotta get outta Baghdad. Now I gotta get back home. I mean, and you know, initially, I wanted to get outta Baghdad because I felt like if I had to eject that my chances of survival and rescue would be much better outside the city.
My flight lead eventually pulled up next to me to do a battle damage check, just a look over of my airplane, which is when I found out what had happened. He told me there were hundreds of holes in the fuselodge and tail section, and then a hole about the size of a football and that back horizontal stabilizer.
But I think what stood out to me most was he said, all right, Kim, you're gonna have to think about if you want to fly the airplane back, or if you want to just get to friendly territory and eject. And I knew that decision was coming because we don't actually train to land in this backup emergency system.
And so I knew I was gonna have to make that decision, but to hear him say it out loud was like this, almost a little bit overwhelming, where I was just thinking, you know, how do I make this choice? You know, do I eject, do I try to to land? It felt like an impossible choice, that potentially if I make the wrong choice, it's a life or death decision.
So I spent an hour flying the airplane home trying to think about what I would do, how, just assess how the airplane was flying. Working with my flight lead, my wingman who was there providing me mutual support, kind of going through the pros and cons, talking about potential consequences, what would happen, what would we do, really thinking through everything.
And really just trying to stay focused on the task at hand, which was hard because I didn't know if I was gonna survive. You know? I didn't know if I was gonna make it back. And I really tried to focus and compartmentalize all the terrible thoughts that were occasionally creeping in and just really focus on the task at hand.
We eventually made it back into friendly territory, which was another sense of relief. And then I had to focus on the landing. I had to focus on what, what came next. And, I had thankfully been able to get the gear down and get a sense of how the airplane was flying. And I did feel confident despite all the.
I guess the anxiety and the nervousness and stress associated with the decision. I felt confident in it. In it because of my training, because of my preparation, I felt really good about flying the airplane and attempting the landing. and then it was time, you know, all the talking, that time was passed.
Now it was time to go execute. And I remember coming in for that final approach and at about 60 feet to go. I just remember feeling the airplane, kind of just do this quick roll. And it was that moment of my heart skips a beat. You know, am I gonna crash? Is the airplane gonna flip over on it's back? Do I even have time to eject?
I quickly yanked the stick back and thankfully the airplane leveled out and then 30 feet to go. I just remember thinking, please let me make it, and then 10 feet and I'm just trying to hold it steady and hold it together. And then the main gear and nose gear, and thankfully the airplane was on the ground and.
I still struggle with the word to describe it, but extreme utter relief to be back on the ground with my team and just hearing all their words over the radio, like welcoming me home. It just, it was, an overwhelming sense of relief, I think, to be back on the ground with them knowing that I had made it, that I had survived.
Mike: And strange question maybe, but while you're going through all that, do you feel fear or is there almost like no time because your reflexes take over and maybe it only hits you how it once you were on the ground? I don't know.
Kim: You know, in the moment over Baghdad when my airplane was hit, I did not have time to think about feeling fear. I didn't have time to ask for help. I didn't have time to open a checklist. I didn't really have time for anything. It was more of like training kicked in. So I didn't think that I felt afraid in that moment.
I even told people like, I wasn't afraid. I didn't have time to be afraid. And then afterwards, we actually record everything that we do in the the cockpit. And I listen to the audio, I listen, I watch the video, and I can just hear the fear in my voice. I mean, I can tell that I was terrified, like I can hear it, but I didn't focus on it.
I just had to take action. I had to react. If I was going to survive, I had to respond and, you know, focus on getting that airplane under control. So I didn't think about the fact that I was afraid, but I definitely was. I will tell you that flying the airplane home was a little bit different because now I have all the time to think about it.
I have time to think about might happen, you know, all the bad things that could happen, you know, potentially not surviving. There's a lot of time to think, a lot of time to think about the fact that I was, I mean, I knew I was afraid, I was scared, I was nervous, I was worried. I was all of these things, and yet I had to focus.
I couldn't let that fear overwhelm me. I had to be able to take action to push through it, knowing that I'm afraid, knowing that I'm worried about making this decision, knowing that I'm, you know, have anxiety about the outcome of the situation. I had to push through that and just really focus my efforts, focus on what was important, and take action, make a decision, and then execute.
Mike: Unbelievable. And you know why? Just to put it in context, I mean, this show is about creating better leadership teams, so we're gonna relate this to leadership and leadership teams, but to put it in context, you know, leaders talking to CEOs and leadership teams all day, every day, which is what I do.
It's like their big problem is, ooh, I've gotta go have a difficult discussion with this client, or I've gotta go have a discussion with this problem employee, and it's freaking them out. And it's like, for you it was life or death. But I think there's so much to learn from that. And I love what's something you said, which is, you know that the training took over.
So I wanna talk more about that because I think that does relate to everyday leadership. So what is it that we could learn from that about leadership?
Kim: Well, I think, you know, I think that looking back, right, having time to reflect, I try to figure out, you know, why was I successful in that moment? Why when everything was going wrong, when I felt the stress, when I felt the fear, why did I feel confident in my decision? How did I get to a point where I could make a decision and feel confident in it?
Kim: And what I've realized is that it all comes down to the preparation, the practice, and the planning for contingencies that we do before something like combat or a stressful event happens. I prepared by studying my aircraft systems, I knew what would happen if they failed. I practiced by visualizing and thinking through the situation.
You know, we could, we chair fly in the flying community, meaning we think through, we visualize critical steps as if we're in the cockpit. But that works in my personal and professional life as well when I'm facing a stressful situation. You know, being able to visualize and think through the situation before it occurs, and then kind of taking that last step of planning for contingencies, thinking about those things that could go wrong and what I will do.
But what I've realized, I mean, that's what I did in that moment, but that works in our personal and professional lives as well, because if we are facing a stressful situation, whether it's having that difficult conversation, right, that creates stress, having, you know, making decisions when we don't have perfect information, whether it's a complex project or a very critical presentation.
I mean, those things create stress in our lives. So how do we feel confident? How do we feel like we can move forward when we're faced with this stress or anxiety that we can see that something is coming. And I go back to the same lessons I prepare by doing the work. I look at what has or hasn't worked in the past.
I talk to other people. You know, I do the work, I do the preparation, and then I like to practice. If it's with a team, if I can do a team huddle or a walkthrough, I'll do it. If it's just myself and I'm preparing for a presentation, then I'm gonna do a walkthrough. Ideally, I have an audience that can give me feedback, and then I'm gonna plan for contingencies.
I'm gonna think through the worst case scenarios. But what will I do when it happens? And then I can let it go. I can go, I've thought through the worst case, I know what I'm gonna do, and now I'm just gonna focus on executing correctly. So I, for me, that preparation, the practice and planning for contingencies is helps me deal with fear.
It helps me face that anxiety and nervousness that we can feel, not just in life or death but in situations in our everyday lives where we feel fear.
Mike: I love it. So if as a leader we're feeling that fear and it kind of paralyzes us as it does sometimes, is it really about how to deal with that fear in the moment? Or to your point, it's really about all that preparation. Beforehand and if you do enough preparation, then is it that you don't feel the fear, but do you feel the fear and act anyway?
Kim: Yes, it is. I would say I still get nervous about these things today, right? I still, as a leader, get nervous about having a tough conversation with a teammate or coworker, or my boss. You know, I get nervous about having to make a decision when I know that I don't have all the information. Maybe I'm not quite the expert in the area, and I can feel a sense of nervousness.
So for me, when I feel that way, and I feel that starting to come on, it's a reminder for me to put in the work. So me, it is about all that preparation, all the work that we do in advance and in then that moment. Is the fear and nervousness totally gone? No, not for me. I just, I can't get rid of it completely.
But in that moment when somebody asks that hard question or things aren't going well, I can kind of take a deep breath and think about all the work that I put in up to that point. It's about being afraid and doing it anyway. It's about feeling the fear and taking action.
Mike: And if someone doesn't do that prep and practice and planning for contingencies, what have you seen in examples of how that holds people back? I mean, if you don't do all that work before and fight through it, what's the, so what?
Kim: Well, I think, you know, sometimes when we start feeling that fear, right, whether it's you know, the sweaty palms, the increased heart rate, the breathing, whatever you kind of, the signs of feeling, kind of the stress and anxiety, I think, you know, sometimes when we feel that way instead of taking action, right?
If we haven't done in the work, then we're more likely to freeze, we're more likely to do nothing, to resist change, to not have the tough conversation to where we don't hold each other accountable, where we don't have the hard conversations or make the tough decision. Right. We're less likely to do those things cause we're worried about it.
We don't. We haven't put in the work. And I think when that happens, we lose opportunities. We lose opportunities to improve, we lose opportunities to excel in this competitive environment. And quite honestly, we put our team and our organization at risk. So as hard as it may be, right, we have to do the work.
We need to put in the work so that in that moment when everything feels like it's going wrong, when we're faced with uncertainty, we're faced with this challenge. We can take action, right? We can still take action even if we're afraid.
Mike: So, where do you see the preparation, the plan, the practice, planning for contingencies? Where do you see leaders typically not doing enough? Because there is a lot of fear and paralysis and sometimes a lack of that courage or confidence to move forward.
So let's get pragmatic. Are there specific things that leaders should be doing if we dive a little deeper than just saying prep and practice? What are some specific things that leaders ought to be doing starting today.
Kim: Well, I think a couple things. One, it's the prepare practice plan for contingencies, then execute. And then debrief. And to me, we, what I have seen where we tend to cut ourselves short is we run out of time, right? we feel like we don't have enough time, so maybe we don't practice, maybe we don't do that team huddle.
Where I really see it get cut short a lot of times is the debrief, right? We go through a situation, we go through something. Occasionally we'll do like a quick, what did we learn? But we don't really spend the time on the debrief. And to me that is where we, where a lot of the learning comes in, because you can do the prepare practice plan for contingencies, you go out and execute, but it's not gonna go as planned.
I mean, it rarely ever goes exactly as planned. And so how do we then take that and learn from it, and then repeat the cycle again. So I think sometimes we feel like we're busy, we don't have time for this, and then we repeat the same mistakes, the same problems over and over again. So I think where I really see, teams sometimes cut it short, where it can have great impact is in the practice.
Because they don't have time or in the debrief because they don't have time as well. To me, a debrief is that opportunity to walk through the lessons learned, what were our objectives? What did we set out to do? Let's talk about what we did well so that we can repeat it. But now let's talk about the mistakes that we made.
What was the root cause? You know, really drilling down into what the root cause of the mistake was. What are the lessons learned? And then what are we gonna go do differently the next? And a lot of times I see we sometimes can have these great after action reports. Maybe they're in paper, maybe they're not, maybe they're somebody's notes, and then they sit on a shelf, and then next year when the same event comes out, we forget that we even had that discussion.
And so we tend to identify the same lessons, but we don't actually learn from them. So those are probably some of the most common errors that I see.
Mike: Okay, so when we debrief are we and again, let's talk business scenario now, versus combat mission, although sometimes they kind of feel similar.
Kim: They can feel the similar. Yeah.
Mike: But in a business scenario, if you plan to launch some new product, let's say, and that plan succeeds beyond all measures it succeeds. Do you debrief when there's a failure to look at the mistakes or you do you debrief even when things go really well?
Kim: I think you, debrief. In the flying world, we debriefed after every mission. It didn't matter if it was a success or not. Because there's always something that you can learn. And I think that same rule applies. We debrief the successes as well, because we wanna repeat them. Why was it such a success?
Do we all really understand what were the things that led to that? Was it, you know, how we organized? Was it how we set our objectives was, I mean, in all reality too, I think that no matter how successful something is, there's probably like a couple little things that we can work on that we can do better.
But I think in a debrief, one of the things that is very powerful is that it's a time to set ego and rank or position at the door before we walk in because we wanna have that open and honest conversation so that the youngest least experienced members provide feedback to the mores senior executive level members.
It's an opportunity to really learn from each other. Through a safe, a psychologically safe space where we feel like we can share feedback, share lessons learned, raise our hand and say, I could have done this better without the blame or shame. And I think that is critical. Whether this, whether an event is a success or a failure or we could have done better, we talk about it all so that we can repeat the things that we did well and then learn from the things that we didn't.
Mike: I love that. I think it's so important to highlight that and I'm in situations with clients where when things don't go well, they're ready to talk about it. Well, we think we screwed this up. We made this mistake. We didn't work hard enough on this. We didn't plan this well. But when something goes well, when I'm on a call with a client and they say, we were 25% over our sales goal this and I say, well, why do you you think that was? They normally don't have an answer. Well, things just went well.
And I actually think very often there's more to learn from the successes in saying, how do we repeat that? I know it's very common and it's accurate to say we learned from our mistakes, but I love what you said because I think we learned from our successes as well.
So the debrief is so important, and I wanna go back to the practice piece because while preparation I get. Planning for contingencies I get. The debrief I get. Again, in the business world where we're not saying, let's fly a bunch of practice missions. What does practice mean? How do you practice in the business world? What might that look like?
Kim: Well, I think to me, I've seen this done very well in some organizations, I think practice is the opportunity to walk through a situation that you are going to face in advance. Is it a complex project? I have seen construction do incredibly well because they will do, we don't, you know, we can call it different things, but they'll do a quick team huddle. They will walk through roles and responsibilities. They will kinda chair fly right visualize. Think through some of those scenarios kind of potentially where things could go wrong as well. They can bring that in, but it's this idea of just having a team huddle, walking through something that we're about to face if it's a presentation or a negotiation.
There's nothing that says we can't practice the whole thing. We can't have a team of our people there to ask tough questions, to kind of role play with us and walk through something. I mean, there are a lot of ways you can do it, and if you're feeling short on time, sometimes that quick team huddle is the answer.
Sometimes it's a complete walkthrough and discussion. Of a situation that you're about to face. Soit is a little situation dependent, but I think when you take the time to practice, you can answer those questions that people might have. You talk about roles and responsibilities, who's responsible for certain things.
Everyone has a better understanding of kind of how it's all gonna play out. And I think a lot of times it just gives us confidence. Like, okay, we've got this, we're ready, we're, we can walk in there, we can brief this, we can do this. And It builds confidence, which then builds confidence.
Mike: I love it and I'm gonna steal your term. I'm, when I work with clients now, I'm gonna say, let's chair fly this. And they're gonna look at me and go, what does that mean? But I love that term and it's, it sounds more creative than let's role play, or let's chair fly I love that.
Kim: I mean, it's sitting in a chair, which generally we're all doing anyway, sitting in a chair and thinking through those critical steps. You know, what are the critical steps? What are those, you know, how is this conversation going go? How is this briefing going to go? You know, what are we gonna do?
And just walking through it or chair flying through it. And I find for me, it gives me confidence because if there's something as we're going through it that I'm like, ooh, I didn't answer that well, or I'm not sure how would answer that or I don't know that number. I need to go look that number up.
Well, it's a freebie. This is the time to make the mistakes. This is time to realize what we don't know. That way, when we actually go into the situation, we're better prepared.
Mike: Love it. Love it. And I know you talk about, and maybe some of it we've already talked about, and maybe it's a different subject you'll tell me, but I know you talk about the fighter pilot mindset. what is that?
Kim: Yeah. I think, you know, Fighter pilots. I think in general in our community, there's this constant drive for excellence to achieve a high level of performance that quite honestly is expected of us, but it's not like it just comes overnight, right? There is work that goes into this and I think to me, what makes a fighter pilot mindset is very similar to what makes a growth mindset.
It's this idea that we can learn from our mistakes that we're willing to push each other. Lift each other, challenge each other to elevate the performance of the team. So it is a mindset that says, if the team is going to excel, we all need to perform at our absolute best. We do that by challenging each other, pushing each other, learning from our mistakes.
It is having a culture where we all understand the role that we play, where we fit into the bigger picture, and how important it is for each individual to succeed in order for the team to succeed. We learn a lot about fighter pilot mindset because in our early stages of training, you inevitably make mistakes.
In fact, our instructors put us into a position to make mistakes, to see how we will respond. It's uncomfortable. Nobody likes it, but we improve over time, we get better. It's this, deliberate review and analysis every day, every mission on everything that we do to achieve a higher level of performance.
Mike: So as a leader, how do you cultivate that? What advice could we give people to better cultivate that fighter pilot mindset, that growth mindset on their team?
Kim: I think, to start, it requires trust. I think building trust on a team is absolutely critical to ensuring that people feel like they can learn from their mistakes. They can learn from failures that they. We can learn from each other. So I think the trust is critical. I also think it's important for leaders to make sure that everyone understands the role that they play on the team.
Where do they fit in the bigger picture? How does their performance impact the team's performance? So it gives them a sense of being part of something bigger and more important than themselves, so that it's not just like I come to work and I do my job, it's, I come to work, I do my job, and I know the impact that it has on the rest of the the team.
And then in terms of learning mistakes and failures, it is, this is a mindset shift, right? This is important for a leader to set the example to say, hey, I made a mistake, or I didn't make the best decision in this situation, it is ensuring that people aren't punished for mistakes.
And I will, acknowledge that there are different levels of mistakes here. So these are mistakes that we learn from, that we can move on from that are, you know, inadvertent mistakes that people make. It is setting the example. The culture that we are going to learn from these, it is creating an environment built on trust where people safe to provide that feedback.
It is the leader setting the example, asking their subordinate leaders to do the same. It does not, it doesn't do, anything great for anybody if the leader is saying this, but it's not being executed all the way down through the organization. So it is really about creating that mindset, creating that culture where there is a belief in pushing each other and lifting each other, which will elevate the performance of the team.
Mike: And I imagine. Or it would seem to me, that's gotta go part and parcel with also having a belief in the mission or the purpose of the organization. Again, when you are flying a combat mission that may be more obvious that it is life and death and it's about country and it's about duty and it's about your, comrades on the ground or in the air.
That's not always as obvious and compelling within an organization as it might be when you're flying combat missions.
Kim: Yeah, and I think that's why I am a big believer in Simon Sinek's belief in the start with why, you know, why are we doing what doing? What are our mission, vision, values? What is it that I do believe that, I mean, even if you're the janitor, right? You have a critical role to play in the organization. You contribute something to the team.
So how do people understand and feel valued for what they do? It is part of understanding that they are, you know, part of a team, part of an organization. What specific role do they play? How do they impact the team? I think, you know, as leaders at all levels, if we can do that and show the people on our team that we value what they do, that they are a critical component to the team.
Are lives on the line? Probably not in most organizations, but I would say that livelihoods are right. These are people's lives. This is college for their kids. This is putting food on the table. Those things are incredibly important and so sometimes I think we sell ourselves short in the importance of what we do, and it's as a leader, helping people on the team understand that, understand the why.
Go back to the why. Why is it that we do what we do? What critical role do we have to play in this bigger mission.
Mike: Love it. Going back to from a career standpoint, you made the shift and you could tell us exactly when from Air Force to retiring from that life and doing keynotes and writing the book. Tell us a little bit about how that shift happened, and why did you decide to go down the route of teaching and speaking about leadership?
Kim: Well, I think, you know, this mission that I talked about very early on happened very early in my career. I mean, it's been 20 years since that mission, and that really set the stage for the rest of my career, and I had the opportunity to lead teams, both small and large, and I realized that one, I absolutely loved, the leadership roles and opportunities.
I think it, I had the ability to make an impact, and a difference on not just our military and civilian personnel, but on the organization as a whole. And so that was something that I found that I loved and, to be able to close out my career as the director at the Center for Character and Leadership Development.
Kind of taking and pulling all those lessons I learned in the many leadership roles that I had, but sharing it with young cadets, our next generation of leaders, I love the opportunity to share those stories, share the lessons learned that I had because I realized how important those lessons were for me.
I mean, I realized throughout my career so many people were willing to be vulnerable, to have the courage to share stories and experiences and lessons. And each time I realized what an impact they had on me as a young leader, as a young pilot, as a mom, as a wife, you know, that people were willing to share those things with me.
So really that became this new purpose and passion, right? I absolutely love what I did in service to our nation and providing support for our troops on the ground. But at some point that came to an end and it was all about finding my new purpose and passion, and I really found it. And helping to make a difference and an impact on this next generation of leaders.
And I wanted to find a way to carry that, continue that on. I decided to retire about a year and a half ago, really for family reasons. More than anything, I think. I have two young kids. They're currently 10 and 14, and it was time for our family. I think every time we make that transition, it's all about finding a new purpose and passion, making sure that we're happy and content in what we do.
And I really found it outside the military as well. I found it, found a sense of camaraderie. I found a sense of purpose and passion. But it is a challenging transition and I think any transition we make in life has those unique challenges.
Mike: So tell us a little bit more of types of work you're doing today. I know you, you've got the book and we'll put in the show notes where people can go to get that. But you've got the book, you're doing some keynotes. Give us a sense of what types of organizations are you working with today and what kind of work are you doing?
Kim: Yeah, absolutely. I found, I've really enjoyed keynote speaking. I get out to talk to a lot of different organizations, everywhere from the financial industry, construction industry, defense industry. It kind of spans the gamut. I think there are so many stories, that really relate and resonate, with a non-military audience.
I think there's so much, you know, in terms of followership and leadership that really can resonate with people. So I do a lot of the keynote speaking. I do some leadership coaching, and really the book has been, a passion project for several years. I, didn't plan to write a book. It was never really one of my goals.
And then while I was an instructor at the Air Force Academy, another instructor, sat in on one of my classes and came out and said, all right, I think you should write a book. And I was like, what are you talking about? I'm not an author. And he said, well, you will be. I'll take your next chapter in a couple weeks, or I'll take your first chapter in a couple weeks.
And, it really was kind of a passion project of really just, I think I did it backwards. I decided to just write and put it all out there and really think about what was most important over my 24 years of service, what were the most important lessons that I learned? And I just started writing, which was an incredible experience.
And then the really, after that, the book kind of came together. But I realized throughout my career, you know, there were many times that I felt fear, right? Whether it was walking up the ramp at the Air Force Academy, going to basic training, whether it was being the only woman, the only female fighter pilot in my squadron for the first time.
Whether I was in a new leadership role leading more than a thousand military and civilian personnel throughout the region, whether it was me being the stay-at-home mom while my husband deployed. I feel like in all those situations there was this sense of fear and anxiety and, you know, I didn't like it at the time.
I just, I almost felt like it was this weakness or a vulnerability that I had. And what I realized having, you know, the power of reflection in hindsight is that the fears, those feelings are normal. It is all about what we do in that moment that matters the most. It is, you know, as these stories, kinda came out in my writing, I just realized that there was this constant theme of feeling fear, you know, feeling nervous, feeling worried.
And that's where it all kind of connected, is that this idea that it is not the fear that mattered It is not the fear that matters. It is all about what we do in that moment that matters. So you know, it's being scared and walking in the door anyway. And this whole idea of just we face fear in our everyday lives.
It is totally normal. And it is fear of not meeting expectations. It's fear of change, fear of the unknown. All of these things can feel daunting and it can feel stressful. And what I've realized, it is all about what we do in that moment truly matters the most. And so that's what the book is about the fears that I've faced, the lessons I've learned, and how to deal with that fear, how to overcome it, and why leading with courage on our teams and in our organizations and our families is so important.
Mike: I love it I would go so far as to say that if you wake up every day and you never feel fear, you're probably not trying hard enough.
Kim: Yeah, you're probably not.
Mike: For me, if I if I never feel that fear, I think I'm gonna get bored pretty quickly. To me, fear drives us to do new things, learn new things, grow in new ways, and that's how we get better. It's part of the growth mindset, yeah, If you're doing the same thing,
Kim: It is all about like, how do we push ourselves outside our comfort zone so that we can get better? And I, if don't feel nervous or anxious about something, I'm probably just hanging out in that comfort zone where it is very comfortable. but we're likely not getting any better. We're not pushing ourselves.
And yes, it can feel scary, it can feel, we can feel anxious or nervous about these things. And you know, the reality is that you can't have courage without some fear. So can you get the other side of that? Right. Can you push yourself to get on the other side? Because I feel like every moment in my life, every hard thing, whether it was being over Baghdad, or being in a new leadership role where I felt challenged.
Like if I can get beyond that, like I have grown so much from those moments, I have pushed myself, I have challenged myself I have given myself confidence knowing that I can overcome it. So doing those hard things, really think makes us better at doing more hard things.
Mike: So that's such an empowering way to think is the next time you feel fear instead of letting that stop you. It's like, oh, cool, I'm about to grow. Like if I have the courage enough to fight through this, if I let it paralyze me, I'm not growing. But if I have the courage to fight through this, I'm gonna grow.
I love that. That's so empowering. And last thing, I'm interested in before we wrap up is, so you have taught cadets about leadership. You've now worked in the, I'll call it the civilian world, I guess, profit, nonprofit. What's the difference? Is it the same or are the cadets more eager to learn than the civilian population?
Less so. What's the difference when you work with both? Or is it, are they all just people and it's all the same?
Kim: I think we're all just people. I think, you know, I've had the opportunity to teach young cadets. I've had the opportunity as a senior leader in the military to teach fairly senior leaders, you know, leaders that have been there and done it, new emerging leaders. And, you know, the reality is that we all have something to learn.
I mean, I think about my very last leadership role as the director at the Center for Character and Leadership Development. I had spent 23 years, in the Air Force then, and it was kind of a pinnacle job for.me This peak of my career, and it's probably one of the years where learned the most, about myself I was surrounded with these amazing experts who had studied leadership, who had executed leadership and having the ability to learn and grow.
So I think, you know, as we, as I worked with less experienced leaders and more experienced leaders, I mean, yeah, the experience matters, there's different stories, there's different experiences, but truly we're all the same. We're all passionate about trying to get better, wanting to get better learning from each other.
So I do think we're all people, we're all people. We have the same fears. You know, a cadet and a CEO likely have the same fear of not meeting expectations, of not being good enough, right? Of fear of change, fear of the unknown, right? Whether you're a 20 something just starting out on your career.
At the peak of your career, I think there's always something to learn and grow from, and it's okay to feel that fear, but you gotta do something about it.
Mike: I think what we just said is, it's not okay to not feel the fear almost. Right? Like you gotta feel the fear. It's a good thing this is amazing. So Kim, where should people go if they wanna find out more about you? Of course they should go, buy your book. Flying in the Face of Fear, a Fighter Pilot's lessons on Leading with Courage.
We'll have links in the show notes, but where else should people go to find out more about you?
Kim: Yeah, probably the easiest way is my website, which is kim-kc-campbell.com. Kim Campbell's a very common name, so if I throw the KC in there, which is my flying call sign, that helps. But it's kim-kc-campbell.com. It's got links to all my social media as well as, information about the book. You can also reach out on LinkedIn.
Again, you can find me at kim dash kc dash campbell. And those are probably the best ways to reach out. But I would would love to hear more questions or thoughts. If you're listening and want to know more or have a few questions that maybe we didn't cover. I'd love for you to reach out.
Mike: And I realize we actually have to close most people, and I thought before I got on and kind of did research what the call sign KC is, oh, that's her initials, but that's not, tell everybody what KC stands for.
Kim: KC stands for Killer Chick. So, we all get a call sign as fighter pilots, and we don't name ourselves. Surprisingly it's not something we do. the way it works is that you're given a call sign. It's usually, happens on a Friday night after a lot of storytelling. And, we're not actually in the room, when the story is told.
So and it is a rite of passage in that we are just finished our checkout, we are now what we call combat mission ready meaning we can deploy with the unit and it is a bit of a rite of passage to honor you with a call sign. And I remember walking in that night, hearing lots of cheers, and they said, your call sign will be Killer Chick. it's too long to say so KC, for short, and then it's, you know, everybody thinks it's my initials anyway.
Mike: Well, I'm gonna call you Killer Chick as we sign off. So Killer Chick that this is amazing. Thank you so much for doing this.
Kim: Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.