Giving and Receiving Powerful Feedback with Treena Huang
Watch/Listen here or on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts“I believe as the leadership team goes, so goes the rest of the company. So if you don't have that consistent and significant sustainable growth, you've got some work to do.” — Mike Goldman
“The only way we grow trust with each other is through difficult conversations.”
— Treena Huang
Navigating the Challenges of Giving Feedback
- Reflect on your intentions to genuinely help, not control or assert authority.
- See the individual as a person, recognizing their efforts and positive intent.
- Focus on making a genuine connection and fostering empathy and openness.
Mastering the Art of Receiving Feedback
- Approach feedback with openness and willingness to improve.
- Cultivate humility by acknowledging areas for growth.
- Detach feedback from personal identity to effectively learn and grow.
Introducing the Live 360 Feedback Model
- Involves face-to-face interactions where feedback is shared openly.
- Promotes deeper understanding through meaningful conversations.
- Encourages transparency and objectivity in a group setting.
Building Trust Through Feedback
- Trust is essential for impactful feedback exchanges.
- Trust grows by navigating difficult conversations together.
- Live 360 feedback promotes transparency, vulnerability, and mutual understanding, enhancing team cohesion and trust.
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Mike Goldman: Treena Huang is an expert in transforming team cultures towards higher performance and trust. As a highly sought after coach, Treena's unique live 360 feedback approach trains the skills necessary to communicate with both candor and kindness.
Before becoming a leadership coach, Treena served as a UN official, Working in high stakes, political settings. uh, the world could probably use some of that today. she has advised senior government officials, the executive masthead of the New York times, tech founders, and C suite leaders in the non profit sector.
Treena welcome to the show.
Treena: Hey, thanks, Mike.
Mike Goldman: Yeah,
really looking forward to this.
And the first question I always ask, after all, this is the better leadership team show is from all of your experience, what do you believe is the one most important characteristic of a great leadership team?
Treena: think the extent to which teams can be great is a direct reflection of how good they are at being able to tolerate uncomfortable conversations.
Mike Goldman: Love that answer because I see that all over the board and my leadership teams and my sense is as we talk about feedback today, our topic, uh, there are a lot of potential uncomfortable conversations there. So can't wait to, to dive into that with you. I I certainly, I want to spend a good amount of time on your specific live 360 feedback approach, but before we do, I want to be a little bit more basic and foundational,
leaders, why is feedback so important and, do we get enough of it or, do we not get enough of it?
Treena: You know, feedback is the only way that we ever know how we're doing, right? I mean, we can be out there in the world and think we're doing a great job, but unless we're actually hearing that reflected back to us from the people that work most closely with us, we actually don't know. And the reality is that we can't see ourselves.
We have blind spots, we have things we're not aware of, and so how we're doing in anything in life, but particularly in our jobs, is really,
Influenced by how much feedback we get. And I think that you asking the question, you know, you, already know from your own experience, we absolutely don't get enough of it.
it.
You know, it's a conversation that everybody avoids. We do it because HR tells us we have to do it. We work in an organization that has processes and systems, and we need to fit into those. So we will fill out the forms. We will go along with the process and do as little as we can. to comply with what's required, the extent to which the quality of that conversation is really going to be impactful for the person and for the team they're working in is doubtful.
know this because we have so many problems. not only performance, but things like, people skipping work, people not being engaged, checking out or dialing it in, starting to have,
problems getting along with each other because,
there are things that are not being said, or being talked about behind people's backs.
And this is just all the stuff that happens when we can't just have candid conversations with each other. And be open to how we ourselves can improve our own experience.
Mike Goldman: So diving in a little deeper. On that.
I think the leaders that I work with, I think people have a hard time, both giving feedback also in the right ways to receive feedback. So I want to talk about a little bit of both, but, let's start with giving feedback. Why, does that seem so much harder than it should be?
Why is it difficult for, some leaders to give each other feedback or, you know, why is giving feedback so hard?
Treena: I think that if, you know, you, hit the nail on the head, pointing out these two roles that we have in that feedback exchange, you know, to, give it is typically where we focus. We invest a lot in managers and figure out what to say, how to say it, what order to say things in. But at the heart of the feedback conversation is actually how difficult it is to hear it.
this idea of receiving feedback. And so when we're in a position of having to tell someone, you know, what we really think and how they might improve, we're very aware of not wanting to be disrespectful or maybe hit something that might,
bring about a really angry or defensive response. And we don't want to be. in a position of having to be on the receiving end of that. don't know how to be in that. So we're looking at ways to,avoid that reaction.
Mike Goldman: What are some of the. C
haracteristics and again, let's talk about the giving side. what are some of the, characteristics of great feedback? How should people think about it? And maybe, part of that is if we understand the characteristics of giving great feedback, maybe we will be more likely to do it because.
We'll be less likely that to turn into a difficult, uncomfortable situation. So what are some of the characteristics of giving great feedback?
Treena: I think it really starts with checking in with what your intention is before you actually give the feedback. You know, is your intention to, correct that person, you know, make that person better,
put them in their place, exert your own kind of control or your own influence as a manager, you know, because it's your job to do, or is it that you really want to offer them something that can be genuinely helpful to them professionally in their own, in their own personal growth. And the reason why I think that piece is so important is because there's a felt sense to it. You know, when someone tells us something that's hard to hear, it's not so much the content that we will object to.
it's the way in which it makes us feel. So when people feel that you care about them, that you respect them, that you see their, their effort, their goodness, it really, serves to heighten the likelihood that they're going to stay in the conversation and be willing to, to open up to that. I think that's the. That's at the heart of it all, and often the piece that we skip.
Mike Goldman: I love that. And, what I'm, I'll paraphrase what I'm hearing is. We need to see the other person as a person, not as an obstacle in the way to getting the job done. And I'm so focused on that. I'm rereading for about the sixth time, a great book called leadership and self deception. don't know if you've ever read that, if you haven't, and I'm talking to both Treena and the audience, as I say that amazing book to go read, but it, it sounds like it starts with seeing the other person as a person and also.
Believing in their positive intent, believing they're trying to do the best they can versus what the hell is wrong with you.
Treena: such a good way to put it, Mike. That's absolutely it. You know, I think it's the difference between focusing on what to say, you know, what to say, doing it right, versus just, just making a connection with someone and being real and remembering that we're just people. We're just doing the best we can with what we know.
Mike Goldman: What about of feedback? And, and I have a, a good sense. Maybe the answer to my question is going to be, well, Mike, it's both, but you'll probably, you'll give me a little more color commentary than that is, you know, feedback in the moment versus more overall. Here's how you're doing kind of feedback.
And here are some things I'd like you to change. Is there a secret formula to that mix? Is it, should it all be in the moment? Are there times when in the moment doesn't make sense? How, how should we be thinking about that?
Treena: You know, I think there's different kinds of feedback, right? There's the in the moment feedback where something has the opportunity to be corrected.and I think generally the more we can do that kind of regular, consistent, way of communicating with each other, the better off we all are because we give ourselves the opportunity to actually improve something, correct something, change something.
Whereas if we leave it to six months when we actually have the formal performance appraisal conversation, it's too late and that person has lost out on the opportunity to even try to address it. having said that, I think, you know, is, reason to having a timetable around those more formal conversations that typically address career growth, development opportunities, and checking in with a person about how they're really feeling about their job, how they're doing, the things they want to learn, the things they, they want to share that maybe there isn't so much time for in the day to day.
Mike Goldman: So we talked about some of the characteristics of giving feedback. I think people underestimate that there's a skill to receiving the feedback as well. So what have you seen? mistakes have you seen people make in receiving feedback and what are some of the characteristics that or best practices around receiving feedback?
Treena: I think you, you touched on it, you know, in your book, recommendations, this idea of self deception. You know, we're all kind of doing that. We're all sort of deluding ourselves in a way, you know, trying to, cover over the aspects of ourselves that we're hoping people don't see. You know, we know when we're not doing a great job.
We know when we're not great at something. but it's hard to, hard to be open about that. And so I think, you know, as a feedback receiver, you know, the more open we can be to acknowledging those growth areas in ourselves, the more willing we can be to say, Hey, you know, that's, that's true. That is something.
I could see something I could work on. I'm willing to try that. You know, I think that curiosity, that willingness to, take what someone is offering us,and trying it on, you know, it's a shortcut actually. It's a shortcut to be able to solve a lot of our own problems because we don't have to figure out how to do it.
We can just take, you know, the recommendation that someone's offering us. And I think that takes a certain level of humility, right, for us to, be that kind of, that self honest with ourselves. actually it's, it's something that can benefit us, you know, not just at work, but more generally, you know, in all of our relationships.
So as a receiver, openness, curiosity, and the ability to take it in without it meaning something. our worth or our goodness. You know, I that's the real, that's the real key.
Mike Goldman: What if we disagree with the feedback somebody gives us?
Treena: Yeah, I love that. And often that's the, that's the case, you know, the way somebody else sees our work or sees us doesn't feel lined up with how we see ourselves. I think it's important to be able to express that and say, you know, can you tell me more about that? I actually, I'm not sure I agree with that.
or can I share with you, my, my experience of this? you know, and letting that person, see your interpretation, your perspective. not as a defensive, argumentative response, but one that actually deepens the understanding.
Mike Goldman: I like that. And what I often coach leaders to do is whether you agree with the feedback or not, thank the other person. And not for that. Like not a sarcastic thank you, but thank them not necessarily because you agree with the feedback, but thank them for being courageous enough and caring enough give you that feedback, whether you agree with it or not.
Treena: Absolutely yeah 100%. I think that's that's so key and that actually is what kind of keeps us in the conversation. Right? If we can kind of stay in that position of remembering the that that person, you know, has made the time and had the courage to tell you something that probably wasn't so comfortable for them is what helps us to kind of stay in that, that more open
Mike Goldman: space
Yeah, I think it does that. It also makes the other person more likely to give us feedback again next time, as opposed to. Shh he always shuts me down. I'm just going to stop trying.
Treena: absolutely
Mike Goldman: So tell us more. So we we've talked about basics of giving and receiving feedback.
Now I want to get into kind of your model, which I find fascinating is this live 360 feedback.
And I have done. sixties before with my clients, some of them work really well. There are some. Tools that work better than others because they don't hide anonymity very well. And therefore people don't necessarily write the way they feel. You've got a leader that says, Oh, I know by the way that's written, I know who said that.
And, and it can get ugly. So I've seen three sixties really well. I've seen three sixties done not so well, but I think your model is, is very different. So tell me a little bit more about the live 360 model.
Treena: Yeah. So, you know, the traditional approaches, as you described, you know, it typically is written, and people can generally tell, you know, who the feedback is coming from, which kind of, overrides the intention of anonymity. You know, this idea that we shouldn't know who's writing things, that, that we should just take the feedback objectively, but that's really underestimating, I think, of the person who's receiving it, but it's also really, underestimating the person giving it and their ability to communicate something, in a way that,opens up an opportunity for people to talk about something so that there can be that understanding.
the live aspect of it really is about people coming around a table and sharing directly with that person what their feedback is. And what that does is it holds them as feedback givers accountable to the feedback being true, that they can substantiate it, that they have examples. And Because it's being shared in a group setting, it kind of amps up that accountability aspect.
They're not going to come in and say something, that's, fueled by an argument they had with that person two days before. You know, it's not going to be some kind of emotional outburst. It'll be something that actually is legitimate.
And what happens in this kind of setting is that people learn to say and be in these uncomfortable spaces in the presence of their colleagues, in a very supportive kind of way.
And what ends up coming out is feedback that is generally pretty consistent across the group, which is always really interesting. Because if you're hearing the same thing from multiple people. You kind of know it's something you need
attention to. And so that's the power of what, what ends up coming through.
Now it's not, you know, it's not all just random, you can say anything. You know, I do guide the session with three very specific questions. so they're all coming in prepared with their response to the same three questions. And during this time, the receiver, and this is pretty fundamental to the exercise, the receiver is silent. So they actually are just there to listen, they're just there to take it in, and they're spared, you know, the, the need to say something, or respond, or explain themselves, or argue, And it's, it's a very fundamental part of what it means to be a good receiver, right? To be able to, to listen and not
Mike Goldman: What, are those three questions?
Treena: So the three questions are really simple. The first one is, what's one thing I should do more of? What's one thing I should do less of or differently? And what's one thing you appreciate about working with me?
Mike Goldman: Love it.
Treena: So, you know, they're, they're wide open questions. You can answer them in any, way. You can approach that in any way you want to.
and I think what works well about those questions is that they're not really inherently positive or negative. More of something doesn't mean it's good. Less of something doesn't mean it's bad. You know, it's, they're very, they're actually very neutral questions.and it's one thing. So it's not a laundry list of 59 things, right?
It's one thing. And so the things that come through are going to be the most impactful, hardest hitting behavioral changes that will have the greatest impact on that person and the people they work with.
Mike Goldman: So for folks, and maybe I should have asked this first, but that's okay. For folks that are less familiar with even what a 360 is, let alone the live, you know, your version of it.
360, I mean, who, who are the folks? You know, around the table, is it just that person's direct reports? Is it direct reports, peers, and who they work for?
Is it truly 360? Who, who's typically in the room?
Treena: So my guidance to them in choosing who they're going to have in the room, and this is an important part of the exercise, you know, they get to choose. They choose who they're going to receive feedback from. And a lot of people, skeptics will say, well, why should they be able to choose? They'll just choose people that are going to say positive things about them.
Well, you know, the, the guidelines around this are that you need to have your direct supervisor. So that is one person that has to be there. You need to have at least one direct report. Somebody you manage. need to have peers, people that are working in different functional units.and there's enough options in there to have a mix of different
levels, different grades of authority.
I will ask this person, you know, why they're choosing this list of people. And What's interesting is that if they've come to this exercise and decide they're going to actually have the courage to do it, they're not going to choose people that are only going to tell them good things. They actually want to hear, they want to hear the real stuff. So that's never
Mike Goldman: How do you deal with, so, so given that part of the 360, and part of most more traditional 360s, do you have that, that's what 360 means? It's, you know, all around the person you're reporting to, the folks reporting to you, peers, etc. But as you said, the traditional version is that's all written, but now I'm picturing you're now in the room with, let's say, three of your direct reports and your boss is in the room. What I find interesting, and I'd love to hear how this, how this actually happens is if I'm, if I'm the person getting the 360, my direct reports are hearing. What my boss is saying about me. So, two concerns I have there that I want to find out what it really looks like and how you deal with it.
One is man, I don't know if I want my direct reports hearing how my, you know, the guy I'm reporting to, or the woman I'm reporting to thinks I'm a screw up. I don't want my direct reports hearing that, but maybe the bigger concern in my mind is what are the chances that. My boss in front of the people that work for me, that my boss is going to fear being open and honest because they don't, they want to be sensitive that my direct reports don't hear things that maybe they don't need to hear or or shouldn't hear.
How do you, how do you deal with that? And what, how does that actually play out?
Treena: I think those are really good, points that come up in every, you know, every 360 I do, everybody brings up those, those concerns. You know, I don't want to make
boss
look bad in front of her boss and vice versa. And actually that's all part of it. to recognize that we have so much fear and concern over having to hide the truth. And because all of these participants are receiving some private coaching in the background, so, you know, before we actually go into that room, I've already spent some time privately with each of the participants to be able to express some of these concerns or fears they have and to reassure them that actually if your intention is really to help this person, it only benefits them to have everyone have a full view of how they're perceived.
And not in a critical way, not in a shaming or embarrassing way, but in a way that's messaged around being in support of this person. And having the confidence in them that they can be even better than they are. And so, you know, it's this opportunity for your direct reports to see you as somebody who has the courage to go out there and
be
so vulnerable as a leader that, that shows your people, wow, like this person is serious, like my boss is serious. about being able to take feedback and can do it in this really open way. And what that does, of course, it brings about this self reflection. I'm asking my boss to do this thing. Like, am I doing that? And this is what starts kind of, you know, creating this ripple effect in the exercise. That while it may be about that one person is receiving the feedback, all of the people around the table who are giving it are actually also benefiting from their own self reflection from their, know, their around having to say something that's difficult.
And when everybody kind of gets thrown into this mix of being really uncomfortable together, something kind of magical happens in allowing for more, more truth, more supportiveness and kindness come through.
Mike Goldman: So let's talk about a little bit about that, that truth, because the word, the word trust keeps popping up in my head. And, and I feel like it's, you know, the chicken or the egg here, and I want to get your thoughts is, in order for this to work well, There needs to be, I imagine there needs to be some level of trust on the team because giving and receiving feedback, as we said, is not an easy thing to do.
And if you don't trust the giver or the receiver, it's not going to work as well. So I imagine there's some level of trust that is needed for this to work well. And that's probably why you coach everybody a little bit beforehand. But then I also think. Just the act of doing this exercise builds trust. So that's why I say it's like the chicken or the egg.
So talk a little bit more about the trust component and how that plays out.
Treena: yeah. such a good point. you know, when you think about human relationships. The only way we grow trust with each other is through difficult conversations. We don't just have trust with anybody, you know, because we agree on everything and because everything is always pleasant and easy. We grow trust because we've been through something together.
We've had a disagreement. We've worked something out. We've hurt each other, but we've been able to kind of come through that. And that's actually what keeps trust alive. It's what deepens our trust. it's what allows us to be ourselves with each other. So you're absolutely right. There has to be some level of trust in the team to introduce something like this, but the trust doesn't have to be, that deep. It just has to be respectful. There has to be a baseline of respect between colleagues and a feeling that, yeah, I'm willing to come to this because I do want this person be able to do better. I do want to help this person if there's something I can let them in on. But beyond that, there doesn't need to be anything more.
And what the exercise does is it helps people to realize, wow, like that person could really hear that. And they took it really well. And they value my perspective, you know, and when that person goes out and actually applies their feedback, well, then that whole trust and respect, you know, goes to another level because now I feel like you really care about my view.
You respect what I think. And now I'm more open to what you might offer to me. And that's the kind of dynamic that we want to see more of in high performing teams
Mike Goldman: you're going to get that at a deeper level by doing it live versus the traditional, you know, I'm just looking at a report at the end of the day. what, what are the other benefits, What, what are some of the other benefits? Maybe we haven't talked about yet of this live 360 model versus the traditional one.
Treena: well, I think, you know, this comes back to the, your point about the receiver really being at the heart of whether or not feedback goes anywhere. You know, you can be the best feedback giver and do really well at being able to communicate that. But if the person doesn't do anything with your feedback, really doesn't mean a whole lot. So this exercise actually has a followup component. So within three to four months after the first round, we actually reconvene again we know, invite people to share. What if they notice this person's done differently? What is the impact of those changes been? what are some examples that you noticed?
And that really serves to reinforce and affirm that person's effort. But it also, again, it's engaging the people around you. So, you know, they're, they're staying alive in not only being able to support you, but in remembering like what's relevant about the feedback you gave them. So that followup component is a strong, know, difference from the more traditional approach.
the coaching aspect as well, you know, that each person has a little bit of coaching. these sessions. because feedback is not a natural, it's not a natural communication skill. None of us really knows how to do it very well. And there are some very specific tips and ways of communicating things that people can, practice and implement.think the other aspect is probably just the transparency of it because coming out of these rounds, the person who received the feedback actually emails out. their commitments. So it's not just a conversation and everybody just walks away and feels good. That person actually thinks about how they're going to apply that feedback, and they put it in an email, and they say, this is what I've heard, these are the ways I'm going to be applying it. And they give very specific contexts, where they're going to make that effort so that those around them can actually watch, observe, you know, is that person doing what they said they were going to? And it's that kind of baked in accountability that makes it more likely that the feedback is going to be
Mike Goldman: And I think the fact that it, like, we always talk about 360s, the best tools, you know, have this level of anonymity, but if you really get to the heart of what we're trying to do here. The anonymity is, I mean, that, that's kind of a bullshit part of the process. Like, why do we want anonymity to me?
I'm more likely to do something about it. If someone gave me heartfelt feedback, I also think, and you kind of alluded to this earlier, but I want to put another kind of stamp on it because it's so important is this in effect becomes a really important exercise in, in building the team and the trust of the team, which I don't think you get out of a traditional 360.
Treena: Yeah. No, thank you for saying that. It's it's so true, right? We this anonymity thing. It's like it's like because we don't trust ourselvesto be able to have a mature professional conversation that we have to hide behind. anonymity, like that's just so dismissive of, you know, our capacity as humans, you know, that, that we can't just learn to, to do that.
And I think if we're really serious about growing our team culture, you know, to work well together, to respect each other, to be supportive of each other, then we need to be able to, at the very least show up for each other through these kinds of conversations.
Mike Goldman: Beautiful. I love the model. is this something that you've got the session, then you've got the followup. Is there a recommendation of, hey, this is something you ought to be doing every year, every two years, you know, once in a blue moon. How often does this happen?
Treena: So I have, I have teams that I've been working with actually for years where they've incorporated this as regular ritual. You know, they do it, maybe, maybe each person does it once a year, but everybody on the team is doing it. So they're constantly participating either as a receiver or as a giver.
And it becomes something that keeps the practice. Of uncomfortable, candid conversations alive. And it's incredible to see what happens in a very short time. People start to become really like at ease with it. It's no longer something that makes them nervous. Everybody goes into it kind of almost excited.
Like, Oh, I wonder what they're going to say this year versus last year when I had it, you know, and you see over time way that people
expand and grow in themselves. And it's really quite a moving experience because. They're telling each other, you know, a year ago when you did this, I remember this, and now I see you in a completely different, space in yourself and you're so much more confident and they, they track with each other and they're, they're witnesses to each other's, development and growth.
And it's just the most. Moving and inspiring process to be a part of. So,
you know, for the companies that, that do this regularly, it has massive, like massive insights
Mike Goldman: I would also imagine that as cause part of what you're doing here is not only ensuring everybody gets the feedback they need to grow, but you're building people's muscles around feeling comfortable giving and receiving feedback, which is part of what you just said. And I imagine what happens and tell me if I'm right, is that.
While people may get the formal 360, you know, periodically once a year, whatever it is, I would imagine people are much more comfortable and people are giving much more frequent informal feedback when they see it because now they're comfortable giving it.
Treena: That's it. You know, that's the ultimate goal is that this just starts being a way of communicating with each other. You know, it's no longer an event to do this. It's just a way of communicating and it really changes the level of trust and the way that
Mike Goldman: Beautiful.
So as we, as we start to wrap this up, Treena so this is, you know, obviously we've talked all about feedback and, and the 360, but tell me a little bit about your coaching business. Is this the only thing you focus on? Are there other things you focus on? How else do you help your clients?
Treena: Hmm.
So this is my primary way of working with teams. but I'm also coaching people privately, both from the executive space and through, companies that are sponsoring them. But I'm also working a lot with private individuals who are interested in their own, their own growth, and want a space where they can talk more openly about. the private things that really matter to them. So those are really the three ways that I'm coaching people
Mike Goldman: And if people want to find out more about the live 360 or just more about in general, the kind of coaching you do, if they want to get in touch with you, where should they go?
Treena: They should go to my website, treenahuang.com. And as of very recently, they can also find me on Instagram. I'm at coach
Mike Goldman: And, Huang is H U A N G for those,
Treena: You got it
Mike Goldman: You dumb white people in the audience who don't know how to spell that kind of stuff. Did I get to say something not, but maybe I'm not very woke. anyway, this was great. Treena thank you so much. I always say, if you want a great company, you need a great leadership team.
Treena thanks so much for helping us get there today.
Treena: Thank you so much, Mike. Really enjoyed it.
Mike Goldman: All right.