Healthy Conflict with Jeanne M. Stafford
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Jeanne's Switch
She spent 20 years in politics, working on various campaigns and in the New York City Mayor's office.
She took a break to raise a child on the autism spectrum and collaborated to reinvent classrooms to include him.
She then began coaching people in the political space and eventually transitioned into the speaking lane.
She hosted an event and used it to build referral relationships, eventually leading her to the National Speakers Association.
Jeanne's journey involved a lot of reinvention and building strong relationships along the way.
"Political Environment"
People learn how to navigate the political space with heat, discomfort, and conflict, and do it with a strong point of view and understanding, they can achieve their goals.
Face-to-face work is an important part of the political process and leadership.
Jeanne emphasizes the importance of learning from past events to better approach the next thing that happens in the political space.
Conflict Isn't Always Bad
Conflict is often seen as a negative thing that people are afraid of.
Conflict arises when something is not getting done or when there are obstacles in the way of achieving a goal.
In politics that having a common goal is the most important thing, and when diverse people come together to focus on that goal, they can replace the amount of things they have a problem with and get things done.
Conflict can be an opportunity to solve problems together through what makes people the same - their common goal.
Working in heated situations helps you to move quickly with the common goal in mind, and not necessarily feel great in the process, but feel joy and power at the end of achieving the goal.
Having a Coach
Having a coach is one of the most powerful things a leader can have
Collaborators help us grow and achieve common goals
Paying attention to how powerful we are can make the world a better place
We should focus on the common goal instead of being distracted by other things
Politics can be a volatile place, but good things can still happen.
Our Incredible Country
The US is an incredible country with the benefits of having a lot of checks and balances.
The system needs reinvention and the people running for office and raising money need to be checked.
Despite this, the system still works technically, but it could be better.
To make the system better, a lot of people need to focus on what needs to be done together.
Everyone needs to examine their own strategies and deeply consider what they stand for to contribute to the solution rather than the problem.
Healthy Conflict VS Unhealthy Conflict
Healthy conflict is a discussion, conversation, and being in person to solve something or have a discussion around it.
Each person needs to become more aware of their triggers and understand how they operate in conflict.
Great leaders have the ability to pause and truly listen to someone who is upset and make a space for them to have a realization on their own.
The common thread in the best work is leaders who get people in a room as often as possible, or virtually if necessary, and collaborate deeply.
Great conflicts are solved with speed, collaboration, and friction to notice and hear people and design a path forward.
Conflict comes in many forms, but what is not different is each individual's ability to function in conflict, and leaders need to pay attention to this space and work on it.
Different Conflicts & Emotional Conflict
Everyone has their own conflict style and should be aware of it
Some leaders have a dangerous style where they always want to win
People can work with coaches or ask themselves questions to develop self-awareness of their conflict style
Leaders who tend to be inflamed in conflict could benefit from someone creating a safe space for them to reflect and ask deeper questions
People should ask themselves what questions they can have ready for difficult conversations and where they can study this kind of agility and excellence
The goal should be productive conversations, not just nice ones
Heated and emotional conversations are okay if they lead to productive outcomes
Creating A Safe Space
Creating a safe space involves asking questions and listening to answers
Questions are powerful and can lead to learning something new
Enlist a collaborator in the conversation to facilitate instead of one person feeling in charge
Seek out someone to be a co-pilot in the discussion
Being The One Who's In Charge
People often reach out with specific questions after a talk.
Many of these individuals feel like they're in charge of everything.
They're exhausted by the amount of work they have to do.
Their calendars are filled with putting out fires and dealing with emergencies.
A great strategy for these individuals is needed.
Enlisting A Co-Facilitator
People in leadership positions often feel overwhelmed and responsible for everything
Enlisting a co-facilitator in conversations can bring in new ideas, spread leadership, and allow for better participation
Asking questions and truly listening with an open mind is key to effective communication
It's important to expect to be surprised by the answers and to have a genuine curiosity for learning, rather than using questions to make a point or dominate the discussion.
The Devotion Factor & Understanding Others More In A Safe Place
The Devotion Factor is about living for something, using what you're for as a driving force for your existence.
Devotion is the opposite of distraction and we should focus more on what we're for with unimaginable intention every single day.
The Devotion Factor platform is something the speaker works on with people one-on-one in coaching and virtually.
The platform includes discussions about the Devotion Factor and how it can be activated to lead people.
Enlisting someone else to help you is a strategy that can be used to activate the Devotion Factor.
Political campaigns demonstrate the power of focusing on a message and how it can attract and inspire people.
We are all here in service for the greater good, and distraction is the only thing holding us back.
When people practice focus and collaboration on what they're for, they can lift up where they're working and who they're serving.
What Are You For As An Individual
People who share a common interest or goal tend to learn more from each other even if they have different backgrounds or paths.
The example of writers who specialize in a particular genre and attend courses with people who write different books can learn more from each other.
The speaking community is also a good example of people with different backgrounds coming together to collaborate and make the world a better place.
Jeanne notes that there is a trend of people focusing on what they're against rather than what they're for, which can lead to unproductive rants.
Talk About What You're For, Not Against
Top talent focuses on what they are for rather than what they are against
They spend time in rooms with like-minded people who share their goals
Leaders in the wealth management space hold events to answer questions and provide guidance to clients
They come together to set forth a path for safe investment and guide individuals
When things change, they address it right away and get top people in the room to answer questions live and have a back-and-forth discussion
They are a devoted team with a devoted path forward, staying alive in the space as things roll out
Thanks for listening!
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Mike Goldman: Okay. Jeanne M. Stafford is a leadership advisor and collaboration specialist. She helps boards, CEOs, and executive teams get big things done, even when the people involved have differing agendas and opinions. Jeanne's given hundreds of talks to clients such as Columbia University, Standard and Poor's, and Thompson Reuters.
She is the immediate past president of the National Speakers Association in New York City, Jeanne's the creator of the leadership concept, the devotion factor, lead with what you're for. Before opening her advisory firm's, Stafford and Company, she worked in a leadership role in the office of the Mayor of New York City, where she created programs that boosted economic development and collaboration internationally.
Jeanne is the mother of two extraordinary young men and lives in New York City. I had the honor of serving on the board of the New York City chapter of the National Speakers Association when Jeanne was president. And I will tell you that I have led volunteer organizations before, and that is the toughest thing I've ever done in my life.
And the fact, Jeanne that you did it with such kind of grace and productivity and creativity and got things done. And you were tough when you needed to be and gracious and thankful when you needed to be. So that to me is all I need to know. So thank you for doing that and thank you for doing the show.
Jeanne: My pleasure, Mike. It's really my great fortune to be here. I'm excited.
Mike Goldman: Excellent. So, the whole focus of this show is about creating a great leadership team, and what we're really gonna dig into today with Jeanne is the heart of all of that, which is collaboration and difficult discussions and trust, and being able to deal with conflict. I had a client say to me a number of weeks ago is that if there's seven of us in the room and we all agree, we've got six too many people in the room.
So we're gonna talk a lot about that. But Jeanne, I wanna dig in first to your background because it's so interesting. Tell us about the switch and why the switch from the office of the mayor to your own advisory.
[00:02:29] Jeanne's Switch
Jeanne: Hmm. Well, the office of the mayor was seven of the twenty years I spent in the political space. I worked on presidential campaigns, gubernatorial, traveled all over the country for different efforts, and by the time I got to the New York City Mayor's office I'd really, I'd seen it all. So I didn't think anything could be more complex than that.
And boy oh boy, was it, so what I learned was that I took a break from what I had in my 20 years, I've took a break with motherhood and motherhood served up a different time for me. So I, like you, am a parent of a child on the spectrum, so I spent eight years, I like to say collaborating with him to reinvent the classrooms at that time and make sure they included him.
And I learned a lot about navigating those kinds of spaces that are really, laden with bureaucracy and this is the way it's always done. And they needed a creative, collaborative approach to making these changes. And it was very eye-opening and rewarding. And then, A few years, you know, maybe let's say at the end of eight years of that, people started asking me to coach work with people who were in the political space.
And I started going back as a coach and then I ended in the coaching space. Just out of the blue helping people with their speaking and speaking myself on behalf of points of view and advocating for different issues. And the next thing I knew I was in the speaking lane and I took that to a whole new level by hosting an event.
And using it as a way to collaborate with future clients and work a beautiful referral type relationship environment. And that's how I ended up at the National Speakers Association where you and I met and had the great honor to work. So it's been a beautiful journey. Lots of reinvention and along the way a lot of strong, terrific relationships that I've learned a lot from.
Mike Goldman: So we'll probably get into this deeper later, but is your work right now still very much in the political space or are you working more with for-profit organizations? Give us a sense of your focus these days.
Jeanne: My clients now are in the private sector. I have a lot of clients in the wealth management space, in the small business space. People come to me through referral. If I've worked with someone or someone's attended one of my events or one of my coaching sessions, they in turn, refer me. So, pretty much that's where it is.
I do work with people who work in the political space but they aren't necessarily candidates at this time. But I wouldn't, turn my nose on that's for sure. I think now is the time to help people who have vision and the courage and the desire and the focus to want to be a public servant. I've had the honor, great privilege of having a front seat to some of the best. So I look forward to possibly adding that to the things that I do in the future. But right now it's pretty much private sector.
Mike Goldman: It's no wonder then that you did such a good job leading a volunteer organization because I can't even imagine working in the political arena these days, let alone 30 years ago it's still tough, but I can't, and in fact, you know, in the private sector very often people speak negatively. Oh, it's a very political environment.
That's a negative thing to say. And that's what you've done and that's what you probably still will do. So good, good for you. I'm glad you're doing that because I can't imagine jumping into to that arena. That's gotta be crazy difficult.
[00:06:21] "Political Environment"
Jeanne: Yeah. Well the very interesting thing about that word, you know, it's a political environment. Of course, it's a political environment. Everything's political. Parenting is political. Being married has political nuance to it. Everything is politics. So I enjoy working with people and helping them uncover some of those really heavy characteristics.
We put around certain words that we use that keep us from engaging on a level that our country was founded. Some of the best businesses in this world were founded. Some of the most powerful people in the world embrace that kind of energy and life that is quote on quote political. Because in my experience, when people learn how to navigate that space with its heat, with its discomfort, with conflict, as some people like to call it, and they do it with a strong point of view and an understanding and a desire to
have a common goal achieved with other people, then you get it done and you get it done with a lot of routine. I love that you say that 30 years ago, I mean, not much has changed in the work of electing someone anywhere. I mean if you wanted to run for congress in the 1980s, you found out who voted last time.
And you got a list of those people and then you went and knocked on doors and you hoped to get those votes and then some more. Now, obviously it is a very intricate elaborate kind of idea to you know get endorsements and have the backings of people, but face-to-face work is part of the political process then and today and face to face work is part of the great work of leaders today and that's one of the things you and I experienced together.
At the time, we were all collaborating. The entire group of volunteer board members were collaborating to bring people back in person after being on video for a year and a half. That's a big deal. So we didn't have a lot of buy in. We had a lot of people who were concerned, who had their political, well, I can't even say their take on it, right?
Their take on what they wanted. So we looked to collaborate by adding virtual events and you know the in-person events. And slowly but surely everybody who wanted something was getting what they needed. And then slowly but surely, we were able to increase that, people coming to the meetings and you know, it's a perfect sample to look at that period in time and make sure that we learn enough from it
to look at the next thing that happens cause the next thing is right around the corner. It always is. And make sure that we look at that next thing with familiar eyes instead of, what's this, you know I think it's very important for us to be learning from each of these events so.
Mike Goldman: Absolutely. And I love what you said, you know, with the word politics, which has this negative connotation in the business world, and I love the perspective of that. It's not good or bad, it's just that's life and that's the way things get done. And you. You've got a quote on the homepage of your website that I wanna say the quote and then I wanna dig into it a little bit with you because I think it's so important and I think it's the heart of what I wanna talk to you about.
[00:09:45] Conflict Isn't Always Bad
Mike Goldman: And the quote is, we've been taught that conflict is fearsome. When we understand that conflict is actually an energy that can bring us all together, our dreams and accomplishments become bigger and better. So conflict is normally this dirty word and we're afraid of conflict. Dig into that quote a little bit for us.
Jeanne: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, conflict is a result of something not getting done. You know, we're stuck. What we've sought to achieve is not there. And there are things in the way of it. And the example I like to give is that we all. The greatest events that have ever happened in the world and the reason I loved working in politics so long, and the reason I actually worship, I'm using that in a funny way.
The election day is because it can't be moved. It stays there and no matter what, so when someone is running for office, they can't move election day. Everything must end on that day. So what I learned about conflict from 20 years in the political space, and I apply a lot of the strategies learned there into the private sector spaces that I work with, is that
the common goal is the greatest focus and the more, the very diverse people coming together focus on the common goal, they are replacing the amount of things they have a problem with exactly what they're getting done. So I talk about getting big things done no matter what, and conflict is an opportunity to, I like to say not necessarily understand people.
But have an opportunity to solve a problem together through what makes you the same. And what makes us the same is the fact that we have this common goal we wanna achieve. The people that I worked with in those very heated situations weren't my best. And sometimes I'd go to a meeting at 7:30 in the morning and that one of the people at the meeting would be fired by 3:30 in the afternoon.
It was a common practice. It was a volatile environment. So I learned to move very, very, very quickly with the common goal in mind and with the outcomes and all the solutions we could have and not necessarily feel great in the process, but feel unforgettable joy and and powerfulness at the end of the achieved event.
So if it's election day, even when it's a loss, that something was accomplished together in the name of what we were all for.
Mike Goldman: I love the concept of the common goal, and I wanna dig into that because if you look. The political environment, and I want to quickly move us to the business environment because that's who's listening to this. But if you look at the political environment, many would say maybe mistakenly that we don't have a common goals anymore.
You know, the left wants this, the right wants this, there's no common goals. And very often in business, we make that same mistake of diving into the details and having this conflict over the details and not necessarily believing or maybe not seeing that above all that crap is a common goal that we have.
Is that the first step when you're entering conflict? Is that the first step to figure out what that common goal is?
Jeanne: I do believe that. Yes. That in the beginning you said something at the start that, I wanted to address that went outta my head. I'm so sorry.
Mike Goldman: The political left and right.
Jeanne: Yes. What we're being sold right now, and this really leads into the leadership and development platform that was born from this very common conversation I have, like the one I'm having with you.
What was born is that we're in a brand new world now with, in the past 20 years, more technology has been introduced to the human body than the human body was designed to digest. So what we focus on matters and where we get what we are going to focus on matters. We have a great opportunity to be in collaboration with everything we take in and receive every day, and how we share that with the people we're getting work done with and how we're leading them.
And how even more impactfully than we're leading them. How we're giving them the freedom to work on their own and believe in what it is, believe in the path they're going to take to get the common thing done and we can get back to business. And you can ask me more about that, the point being that we have to take back what
we're taking in, we have to now is the time more than anything, that you may be clicking on something and you may be seeing something that represents a piece of information that you probably could learn a lot more about six pages later. One of the things that's so beautiful about a long-term, a longer conversation like the one you and I are having is it's not a sound bite.
Well, you'll make sound bites out to attract people to come to it, but most of the people like your TED Talk will take the time to sit through a story and the story that you delivered in your TED Talk. Love to give a shout out to the great Mike Goldman.
Mike Goldman: Let's just keep talking about me, by the way. I like that.
[00:15:28] Having a Coach
Jeanne: Well, I wanna bring up that story because in that story you tell us about conflict and then you tell us about one of the most powerful things you have as a leader, and that is a coach. Someone in your life to check and ask you the right questions so that every time there's a conversation with that collaborator in your life, you are one notch higher than you were the day before.
That's why we pick people to collaborate with us to grow and so you also invite in there some really powerful nuances to how we could all pay more attention to how powerful we are to make the world a better place. And this is where Mike Goldman and Jeanne Stafford are very much aligned. It's an opportunity for all of us to breathe a new life
into the types of things we're giving our attention to. And when I constantly talk about what's the common goal, I'm doing this because a lot of people are losing sight of that because there's that wonderful cartoon where a dog sees a squirrel and throughout the cartoon you know that someone says squirrel and that dog looks and you know constantly can't stop looking at the squirrel like my dog when I walk him.
And that's a little bit what like we are when we're getting throughout our day and we're having a little dance with this piece of machinery and all the little lovelies that come up on our computer and all the distractions. So while we can continue to talk about politics as a volatile place or a place where people wanna say nothing good is happening, I really beg to differ.
[00:17:08] Our Incredible Country
Jeanne: We live in an incredible country. We have a lot of checks and balances and Mike Goldman, I've heard it all. I've heard it all. I've heard everybody tell me what they want me to know about what's wrong with the system and what I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt is no matter what's happened, we keep on going.
We keep on you know, heading in the direction that we're safe in this country and people are working hard to be here. Does this system need reinvention? No question about it. Do the people who are running for office. And the people they're raising the money from need a little bit of check and do we need to re-look at that?
Absolutely. No question about it. Is the system still working? Technically, yes. Could it be better? Of course. What does that take? A lot of people focused on what we're gonna get done together. A lot of people focused on exactly what your TED Talk was about. How can we come together?
If you're handing all your power over to the person you're voting for on election day or you're handing all your power over to the person you work for and you're not coming up with new ideas, you are not examining your own strategies, you are not looking deeply at what you're for and how you exist in this world then you are part of the problem. So that's the nuance of what we can do and what we can learn from what's happening out there at this time.
Mike Goldman: So Jeanne, if we bring all of that great thinking back around to a leadership team and the conflict or sometimes the lack of conflict because people are scared of it, the conflict on a leadership team. I wanna get pragmatic and help folks better understand how to kind of enter that danger and navigate the danger of that conflict.
And let's just take an example and we can probably hit on a few examples, but one example which may be very, very timely depending on when people are actually listening to this, is you've got an economy that is in flux. You've got folks on a leadership team that all report, let's say to the CEO, some of those folks believe now is the time to pull back.
Now is the time to maybe, you know, decrease our investment in certain areas of the business. We should stop investing so much in marketing. You know, we've gotta hunker down and make sure we keep our cash there. And then you've got another group that says no now is the time for growth. Now is the time to use our cash to invest and maybe buy some other companies.
And you've got these two different factions that if they have it out as they should and engage in that conflict, they'll probably wind up in a good place. Maybe someplace in the middle that works for everybody, maybe one extreme or the other that works. But what I've seen is very often there is either a fear of engaging in the conflict or they engage in conflict, but do it in a very unhealthy way.
So I guess where I'd like to take this is you know, what do you view as you know, in the business world versus the political world, and maybe there's not that much of a difference, but in the business world, what does healthy conflict look like versus unhealthy conflict? And then from there, I wanna drive to you know is there a step-by-step, is there something that we can, you know, give our listeners that they could say, ah, next time here's what I'm gonna do, or here's conflict that we should be having or we're having in the wrong way.
In tomorrow's meeting, here's the way I'm gonna handle it. So, but let's start with what's healthy conflict look like on a leadership team versus unhealthy conflict?
[00:21:19] Healthy Conflict VS Unhealthy Conflict
Jeanne: Hmm. Well, healthy conflict is discussion. It's conversation, it's being in person. It's not letting, it's never allowing too much time to pass in order to solve something or have a discussion around it. That is healthy conflict. It's also on each one of us to understand how we operate in conflict.
Every single person on this planet needs to become much more aware of what our triggers are. What is it from our childhood? What is it from a past relationship we had? What are things that make us. Let's say more heated in a conflict than another person. I have watched some incredible leaders sail through conflict with this confidence and understanding and one of the greatest characteristics they have is the ability to pause and truly listen to somebody who's very upset.
And then to make a space for them to have a realization on their own. Now each and every conflict is very, very, very different. So I can't speak generically to all of them. I can tell you that the common threat I've seen through the best work I've ever watched are leaders who get people in a room as often as possible.
And if virtual is the only way, then that's the way. But especially during heated times, people who are constantly in and I say deeper than communication, collaboration, any of us can be communicating. It takes the best of us, the best, the highest, most, the trained talent to be collaborators. And in a great conflict.
And I think a great conflict is one where we come out on the other side with speed, right? That we take some time to say, while there are disagreements here, we are collaborating to get this big thing done. And we are gonna use this friction to solve our problem, to notice people, to hear people, and to design a path forward.
And again it's a big thing to talk about conflict and realize there are millions of different kinds of conflict in the world. The only thing that's not different is that each individual arrives with their ability to function in conflict and that is a space that I like to pay attention to.
That's a space that I like to work with leaders in, where are you showing up? And how quickly can we get you back to you and away from what you know about all the people who are driving you crazy.
[00:23:53] Different Conflicts
Mike Goldman: So let's dive into that because I like the idea of, you said everybody has their own conflict style and you need to be aware of what that is. And the challenge I've seen in a good number of leaders is they're not aware of that. And you know, there's a many leaders in particular that I work with, and especially if this is the CEO, this can be dangerous, is their style is no matter what they wanna win.
Jeanne: Mm-hmm.
Mike Goldman: I'm not coming up with the best answer and they would never say this out loud, but the way they behave is they wanna win. So they're not, as you said, pausing to hear the other person. They're not truly asking questions, they're interrogating. So you truly believe, it's like a witness on a witness stand.
So is there a way that people can themselves or maybe they need a coach to do this, but is there a way for people to better kind of step back and have that self-awareness and figure out what their conflict style is?
Jeanne: There's no question about it. Yes, figure out what your conflict style is and then also in, in understanding how you operate in conflict. You wanna, you know, we can't fix I've had the clients who you're talking about, the people who have their lane, their way of doing it. And when possible I've figured out questions that I can ask of them, that questions that have never been asked before, after I've created a space safe enough for them to wanna share those answers with me.
And that creates an opening more often than you would think. So a lot of times the leader who let's say is an inflamed leader. Someone who just, people like to say they love conflict. I don't believe that's true. I believe they could benefit from somebody who would create a space for them or recognize something and then ask a question to let them go deeper on something.
So if someone is out there looking for a job or looking to move to another team or looking to start something up, you wanna ask yourself, what are the questions I can have at the ready to ask the people I'm working with in difficult times? You know or what, where are the spaces I'm studying this type of agility in excellence where I can always be on the cutting edge of this kind of conversation.
And you know the thing we need to get back to is nice conversation, so not nice productive conversation.
Mike Goldman: And is it okay if those conversations get heated and emotional, is that okay or is that a danger sign?
[00:26:46] Emotional Conflict
Jeanne: Yeah. Well, of course. I mean, if you can't be in a conversation that's heated and emotional, you need to look at why, right?. A conversation that's heated and emotional. Some people might believe on the other side of this heat and emotion is the end. I'm gonna be fired. This person's not gonna be in my life anymore.
Something's over. The reality is on the other side of a really good conversation that might get heated is usually resolution in that. Oh good, we got to air that. And so now we're on the other side of it when most times in most conversations, they're just to air a grievance. We're there to move forward from where we are.
From where we were to where we wanna be. It doesn't work in every situation to perfectly resolve the situation. But if you can't function in an argument, you need to really look at yourself. You need to examine why cause we have to be able to function in arguments and obviously we wanna seek spaces where we're producing more and collaborating more than we're arguing with people to no end right?
We wanna have discussions that might be disruptive, right? There's different kinds of conflict. Sometimes I do all kinds of tests with my clients around reinvention we can speak to, and they are designed to get people in a room. And have them have discussions about their findings from the work that they do in these exercises.
And so if you can't handle you know the kitchen, you've got to figure out why if you can't handle the heat.
Mike Goldman: So again, I always like to you know dig in and make it incredibly real for folks. So let's say you are coaching someone, you're coaching me. I'm the leader of an organization and there's a meeting tomorrow where we're gonna discuss a sensitive subject. Maybe it doesn't matter what it is, but we've gotta discuss something that I know there's different opinions on the team.
I also know that there are members of the team that are not always comfortable sharing their opinions, especially if it disagrees with mine, because I'm the leader. What can I do as a leader in tomorrow's meeting? Is there something specific I can do to help people feel like it's a safe space? Now I know the answer to that may be longer term.
There's things I need to do in a leader, but I wanna get really pragmatic too, I'm in a meeting, I want people to understand it's a safe space as it gets me saying hey everybody it's a safe space. Even if you disagree, I want to hear about it. Or is there some smarter way, more creative way to create a safe space?
[00:29:34] Creating A Safe Space
Jeanne: Hmm. We create a safe space by asking questions and then listening to the answers, right? And to somebody who is that person you're talking about, that leader who needs to get in a room with people who are the source of the problem or will be the solution. You know again, there are many, many, many different scenarios here.
But the number one is questions are very, very powerful. And listening to the answers to those questions is the next most powerful step. Right? And to expect to be surprised. To be ready to learn something new when you decide to ask those questions. Another great strategy for a leader is to enlist a collaborator in the conversation.
So let's say you each facilitate instead of the one person feeling so in charge of this, you know, resolution, that person could seek out somebody who's gonna be in the meeting and say, I'd like you to collaborate with me. I'd like to facilitate a conversation, and I'd like you and I to be back and forth in this as we engage everybody and listen, would you be my co-pilot in that discussion?
[00:30:46] Being The One Who's In Charge
Jeanne: Because a lot of times, I have this happen all the time where somebody will reach out to me, I'll do a big talk and they'll be, you know the chief legal counsel of a company and reach out later and ask me a very specific question about something that I said. And every single time it has to do with the fact that they feel they're in charge of everything.
That they feel they're the one who has to come up with the answer and they're exhausted by the amount of output they have. They're constantly getting dinged with emergency emails. They're constantly getting dinged with problems. Their calendar is filled with putting out fires. And so a great strategy for that type of individual.
[00:31:28] Enlisting A Co-Facilitator
Jeanne: Somebody who's so high up who has none of that breathing space is to, in the future, today and tomorrow, create a practice of enlisting a co-facilitator In these conversations, it does a number of things. First of all, it brings in some great ideas that you wouldn't expect because you've taken the heat off yourself and you're sharing this space.
It gives whoever you've chosen an incredible opportunity to show up and really help the situation. And then it spreads the leadership out so that people will get to see it modeled and perhaps change the way they look at the problem, right? If you wanna look at a problem differently, change the way the room looks and feels and sounds and collaborating with someone else is a great strategy for that.
Mike Goldman: I love, love both of those ideas and collaborating with someone else I love because it has in effect, it accomplishes something that some leadership teams attempt to accomplish when they hire you or they hire me, sometimes the reason they hire me is so the CEO can participate in the debate rather than facilitating.
So I love the idea that by having a collaborator, both of those folks get to share in the facilitation, but they can also do a better job of participating because in participating they're now not gonna dominate the discussion like they would if they didn't have that collaborate. So I love that.
And I also wanna go back to the first thing you said, which was ask a lot of questions, listen, and here's the key. You said expect to be surprised and the reason why I think that's so key is because when people hear, I've gotta ask questions and listen. To me that's about 10% of it because the questions people answer.
Is again like they're interrogating someone. They ask a question to make a point not to learn, not because they're truly curious. They're asking a question to make a point and it's obvious and they believe they've got this technique. I'm asking a question and I'm listening. No, you're bashing somebody over the head.
But if you have a focus and a mindset of truly being curious to what the answer is to your point of expect to be surprised. If I'm gonna expect to be surprised, I better truly be curious as to what the answer is. Then all of a sudden, the whole tone of your question is different, the quality of your listening is different.
So I love those two ideas of ask the question, pause and expect to be surprised and have a collaborator. That's gold. That's gold. Tell us more about what the devotion factor is.
[00:34:21] The Devotion Factor
Jeanne: Hmm. Well, the devotion factor was born of all these conversations year after year after year. And the devotion factor is that rather than simply living, it's living for something. It's being in the world in the name of a principle, an idea or a person. It's actually using what you're for as a driving force for your existence.
And devotion is the opposite of distraction. We are a distracted world right now and I believe it's actually a beautiful time in history for us to become aware of that and focus more on what it is we're for with unimaginable intention every single day. And then to share our strategies with others. So my devotion factor platform now is something I work on with people one-on-one in coaching.
I created a virtual platform for people who want something they can tune into twice a month. And I speak a lot about the devotion factor and how we can activate it to lead people very similarly to what I was talking about with enlisting someone else to help you, right? that was born of a conversation that I had with somebody and so many other instances.
[00:35:39] Understanding Others More In A Safe Place
Jeanne: But what happens is when you set a stage like that for people and train people to think that way and you cumulatively amass what you believe in and then you're in a space with somebody giving an example, one step out from what you said before, you say you know CEOs actually walk out of a meeting and call me and say, I found out her mother lives with her and has Alzheimer's.
I had no idea. I had no idea. I feel terrible. And I said, we'll have the conversation go and then suddenly it's this whole human conversation with a really volatile human who suddenly, because the space was shared you know, it may not have ever happened, right? But people, I mean safety is a ripple effect.
If you feel safe and you have your back you know feel someone has your back, you're exuding that to the people that are in front of you. You're modeling it to the people you have in front of you. Again, someone else came out of a meeting and said I had no idea he was getting divorced. Oh my gosh.
Explains all the unanswered emails. Explain this bizarre turn of, you know turn of behavior in the past couple of weeks. I had no idea. He was scared to tell me. You know again it's back to this thing that when we figure out how we handle the things that go wrong, we get better at performing in them. A devotion factor.
This complete utter total study of what you're for and focusing your entire day around it. Literally reinventing the spaces you occupy every single day by moving from distraction into your devotion, we're going to be lifting people up more. it's a great strategy to do that. And you know to go back to the political piece just because it happens to be the first 20 years of my life, I found that.
It was like you took a pill when you were in a campaign. You were completely in awe of the devotion, the focus of the individual who sought to be a public servant. They had a message. And when you work on these campaigns, you hear that message over and over and over and over and over again and it becomes part of you and you become part of what they're for.
And this is why you watch hundreds of people show up at a campaign. Thousands of people pack a stadium because when anybody talks about what they're for that much, that often that there's a surge of activity. So when I dance this very delicate bridge to bring this idea that I learned in the political space into the business space, it's that.
It's that piece that we're all here in service. We're all here for something for the greater good and the only reason we're not achieving it is because we're distracted. What would happen if most of us use the steps to become devoted to what it is we're for, the principle, the person, the idea, and what if we focused on that everyday.
Imagine the leaders, imagine the teams. I see it happening in certain companies that I'm working with and I love it. I love watching what happens when people practice this element of focus, this degree of collaboration, which is a bunch of people coming together who do the work on what they're for with such routine that cumulatively they're lifting up where they're working and who they're serving.
Mike Goldman: And when you talk about a group getting together and focusing on what they're for as a leader, is it what I'm for as an individual, as a human being? Is it what the company is for and all about? Is it both of those things that, at what level do you help people figure that out? What level is most important?
[00:39:40] What Are You For As An Individual
Jeanne: Mm-hmm. If you are a person who loves books, you love books, okay. Let's use this. If you're a writer and you write one particular genre and you study that genre and you go to courses around that, you still end up in spaces who write different books. You learn more from those people because you share a common goal and that is to use the words that come from you and publish books.
Another perfect example is the speaking community. Every one of us is technically seeking to make the world a better place, right? And we come together from our different backgrounds and in many instances, our different paths to get something done, but we're lifting each other up and collaborating in such a way that we know what we're for.
The biggest thing that's happening right now is that I don't know about you and I'm gonna maybe turn some people off right now, but when people start talking to me about what they're against, when I speak about politics or anything like that and they just go on this very familiar, I've seen this in bulleted form rant.
[00:40:57] Talk About What Your'e For, Not Against
Jeanne: I am, I'm bored. I'm bored by that. What I'm looking for are people who are doing the opposite. I don't need to hear the thing I've been hearing for years now. I do not need to hear it and I know that the top talent in the world, the most brilliant people on the planet are not spending a lot of time talking about what they're against.
They're spending a lot of time talking about what they're for, and then they're making sure they're in rooms with people who are for the area they're for you know the tech giants get into a room and they decide they're gonna go to a conference and the wealth management world decides you know everybody's competing right now.
I was on a number of calls that clients of mine in the wealth managements space held last week. I loved those calls. These were, first of all, people who said, hi. I'm not gonna give the names, but you know, hi, we're this mayor bank and we're having this event for our highest level clients and collaborators. And we normally do this as you know twice a month.
But because of this week we're coming together, we're coming together to answer your questions live and to give you our points of view on where everything is headed. And we'll keep coming. We'll keep doing this as the situation calls for us to do so. So there's an example of leaders in a space coming together who all you know, both managers are there to set forth a path for us to invest our money and do so safely and to guide us all as individuals.
And when things change and get volatile and the world st starts clicking away and twittering away, it presents another pathway. And the way to bring everybody back is to address it right away, get all the top people in the room and to answer questions live and have that back and forth. So they are a perfect example of a devoted team, a devoted company and a devoted path forward.
You know they're all in agreement. This is the way we're gonna collaborate and we're going to stay alive in the space as all this rolls out. So those are examples of.
Mike Goldman: And interestingly enough as we start to wrap up, it sounds like we've just kind of gone first full circle back to the idea of starting with a common goal. You know what you're for sounds sorta like you know what's your common goal? And the goal is not you know we have a goal of stopping this, we're against this. It's focusing on what you want.
Jeanne: Well, we've seen that.
Mike Goldman: Versus, well
Jeanne: We've seen that in the world.
Mike Goldman: Every time we turn on Fox or CNN or whatever your favorite news show
Jeanne: Yeah. Well, we've seen it in business too. You know, we've seen it everywhere and we're in charge of what we see. We're in charge of what we digest. And I wanna throw a great opportunity out to everybody listening to take back your focus, to look at what you're seeing every day, to dissect opinions and points of view that have to do with what you want to learn more.
And how you wanna improve that might be in business. And if you choose to be in political conversations, then learn more about what it is. There's so many different resources to do that and we need to be using them so.
[00:44:25] Working With Jeanne Stafford
Mike Goldman: Love it. So Jeanne, what is for a client, what does working with Jeanne Stafford look like?
Jeanne: Hmm. Well, I work with people one-on-one, so if anybody's interested in working with me, you can reach out to me on my email, which I think you're gonna provide. And then I also run JMS Group, which is a brand new online platform. It's virtual twice a month. Again, virtual on Zoom on noon, every other Wednesday.
It's one hour and it's filling up. It's a great crowd and I teach the Devotion Factor platform there and work with people one-on-one live into space. It's fantastic. And then I'm relaunching a social audio show I did on Clubhouse for a year and I move into Twitter spaces on Mondays at noon.
So if anybody wants to tune in there, it's a great opportunity to have a conversation like the one you and I are having and to hear more about how I'm rolling out the platform and I always share what I'm learning live with the clients that I have the great fortune of working with so I can help people with their own strategies
Mike Goldman: Beautiful. So, we will put all the links in the show notes but Jeanne if there's one place in case people are listening and they're not looking at the show notes, is there one link you want to give them? One place people ought to go if they want to just find out more about everything you do.
Jeanne: Absolutely jeannemstafford.com and of course I am also a facilitator and professional speaker, so when I speak about that person who plays on the right hand side, I have the great fortune of playing that role with clients now where they're having smaller events and they need a facilitator to help design an event that lands with what their message is and train everybody in the team to do that.
That's one of the things that I do. So jeannemstafford.com. J e a n n e, middle initial m stafford.com.
Mike Goldman: Excellent. And for those that may be watching on video and Jeanne maybe you saw is I was taking notes throughout this so that's my judge of you know a good show is when I'm taking notes and there's things I say, ooh I'm stealing that to use with my clients.
Jeanne: I'm gonna reframe that. Mike Goldman, tell you what, you are receiving that and I am providing it with glee and that is true collaboration.
Mike Goldman: Love it. I don't remember who said this and Jeanne you may remember cause it may have been an NSA meeting, someone said if you copy from one person. That's plagiarism. But if you're copying from 10 other people, that's research. So I just make sure when I steal stuff, I steal it from lot of people.
Jeanne: That's funny. You're receiving it.
Mike Goldman: But Jeanne, thank you. Thank you for giving. I was receiving. So thank you so much for doing this. This is great.
Jeanne: My pleasure, Mike. Thank you for having me.
Mike Goldman: Bye-bye.