How to Reduce Workplace Drama with Robyn Hatcher
Watch/Listen here or on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts“I believe as the leadership team goes, so goes the rest of the company. So if you don't have that consistent and significant sustainable growth, you've got some work to do.” — Mike Goldman
“We could have the same values and have completely different styles.”
– Robyn Hatcher
Importance of Diversity in Leadership
Diversity of thought, communication styles, and psychological safety are crucial.
Diverse teams drive creativity and innovation.
Understanding Workplace Drama
Drama arises from differences in styles and values.
Importance of aligning data-oriented and people-oriented team members.
Need for clear communication and understanding of individual strengths.
Good Drama vs. Bad Drama
Good drama involves interesting characters and positive interactions.
Excessive drama leads to negative outcomes.
Conflict and Communication Styles
Conflict is natural and can be productive if handled respectfully.
Importance of attacking ideas, not individuals.
The "LOVE" technique: Listen, Understand, Validate, Express/Explore.
Addressing Drama in Teams
Get to the root cause of drama by assessing communication styles and interactions.
Use tools like DISC assessments and actor types to understand team dynamics.
Encourage open communication about personal styles and preferences.
Actor Types and Leadership Styles
Hero: Charismatic, seeks applause.
Buddy: Seeks harmony and friendliness.
Superhero: Action-oriented, focused on getting things done.
Whiz Kid: Analytical, focused on data and accuracy.
Each type has strengths and potential flaws.
Aligned Authenticity in Leadership
Leaders should adapt their style to the needs of their team and situations.
Flexibility and adaptability are key to effective leadership.
Understanding Psychological Needs
Psychological needs drive behavior: importance, connection, inclusion, clarity, independence, and purpose.
Leaders should listen and observe to understand these needs in their team members.
Effective Communication and Listening
Three levels of listening: to win, to fix, and to learn.
Leaders should aim to listen to learn and understand.
Robyn's Approach to Coaching
Workshops on leadership skills, communication styles, and effective interactions.
One-on-one executive coaching focusing on intuitive problem-solving and skill development.
Thanks for listening!
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Mike Goldman: Robyn Hatcher is a communication and leadership professional speaker and owner of the boutique consultancy Speak Etc. As a former actor and soap opera writer, she once got paid to create drama.
Now she works with leaders from Fortune 500 companies, human services organizations, and noteworthy brands to help mitigate the drama in their workplace by creating magnetic leaders that people are drawn to and want to follow. Robyn. Welcome.
Robyn Hatcher: Thank you, Mike, for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
Mike Goldman: probably a long time coming.
So Robyn and I know each other. What is it? Four years now,
Robyn Hatcher: Gosh, I don't know. when did you join NSA? Yes.
Mike Goldman: the New York city chapter. And we were on the board together for two years. She was just president. And by the way, I was president.
Robyn Hatcher: Many years ago of a volunteer organization and it was the hardest thing I ever did. So I don't, I mean, so you made it look easy, but it probably wasn't right.
Yeah, it can be easy. It can be hard. And in reflection, I hear you because this is my second volunteer board presidency. I was, and God help me, I was a president of a PTA. And I feel like it's like childbirth. If you could be president of a PTA, you can do freaking anything. And so, That's how I learned.
And it was so interesting because I learned from the people that were previously in that position were terrible leaders. And I feel like I learned more from them about how to lead than I learned from anybody else.
Mike Goldman: we've got a good chapter and you have a good board where a lot of volunteer boards are like, it's hurting, not hurting cats, hurting flies. and I think
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah.
Mike Goldman: you had some better folks than that. So that was great.
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like choosing the right people, choosing the right people on your team and like going and actively selecting them and letting them know that you're selecting them for a reason. And then you just sort of empower them to do what they do best.
Mike Goldman: familiar. Like, like what any leader should do in the last thing I have to say, but before we dive into the normal interview is, you know, my favorite in the world is me and Robyn's son. How is he six, seven? He's
Robyn Hatcher: Six six.
Mike Goldman: if you're over like five, six, you're tall to me. So, so
Robyn Hatcher: Right, right, right.
four on a good day. And he and I took a picture together and you see all of him and you just see my forehead. And It's a lovely forehead. Mike. It really is.
Mike Goldman: my favorite.
Robyn Hatcher: Thank you.
Mike Goldman: look great in that picture anyway. let's dive in. so the name of the show is the better leadership team show.
And we're certainly going to talk about drama in the workplace today, but because it's the better leadership team show, first question I always ask Robyn is in all your experience, what do you believe is the one most important characteristic of a great leadership team?
Robyn Hatcher: The number one is diversity, and I'm not talking D.E.I. Here. I'm talking diversity of thought, diversity of communication styles and diversity of their psychological safety, their makeup, their culture, because when you have a diverse leadership team, you've got all of these great perspectives.
You've got all these different styles, and if you've got different styles in there, then they can counteract and also help drive the creativity, the innovation, the everything. It drives everything to have not just a one size fits all type of person who's on your leadership team.
Mike Goldman: It's an interesting one because what one of the things that I do with my clients and many coaches do this It doesn't make me unique. But one of the things I do with my clients is if they don't already have it we figure out what their non-negotiable core values are and the core values are typically three to six things These non negotiable behaviors that anchor their culture and it is always interesting the balance between. We have to have all people that act in these ways or don't act in these ways and somehow balancing that with, yes, we need that, but we also need diversity in thought and if everybody is kind of just a robot working in the same way with the same style, we're all going to have the same blind spots.
Robyn Hatcher: exactly. And the thing is like, I feel like we could have the same values and have completely different styles because there are so many ways of getting at that value or so many ways of seeing and objectifying and valuing that particular value so that a lot of times and we think, Oh, this is our value and this is what we need to do to get there, but there may not, there may be another way. You, there may be another way that you can also represent that value that is not in your vocabulary and could be in somebody else's.
Mike Goldman: There's one way to be a great leader. There are. An infinite number of leadership style.
so I want to get to the heart of, drama in the workplace and how we did it. So let me start, I guess, because you know, I've been, God,I've been out there doing this for the better part of 35 years.
So I've certainly seen actually 35 plus years. So, so I've certainly seen my share of drama in all workplaces,
Robyn Hatcher: Oh yeah.
Mike Goldman: why is there so much drama in the workplace?
Robyn Hatcher: Well, I think it's almost what we were just talking about. One of the reasons that why there's so much drama is because there are so many different types of people in different styles. And no matter how brilliant we are, no matter how self aware we are, no matter how many assessments we've done, we all are married to our own style.
And we feel like it's our way is the right way. And we forget that someone can be so diversely different. You know, it's like, you know, I've had leaders like they're talking to somebody as if they're speaking German because I speak German. I speak German. Listen to me. Listen to me. Listen to me.
But the other person doesn't understand German. They just do not understand it. And so I feel like that's where so much of the drama comes from because, and also what we almost started talking about is values. People then step on other people's values without knowing it. And then I just had a. Client today, and she loves data.
I mean, and she's in sales, right? So she's talking about and she wants all of her managers and all of her reps to be about the data and read into the data and make decisions based on the data. However, she's got a couple of people in her team. That are data averse, you know, and it's like they have these other qualities.
They have this humanity, they have this interactivity, they have all of this,charisma and people. And so when they see the data, they just freeze. And so what in her head, it's like, well, if they're not using the data, then they're wrong and they're bad and they're not doing their job.
And they have to get on a pip, and so, I was talking to her and saying how, you know, this person is great at what she does well. And one of the things you have to do is find out how you can relate the data to what she values, which is people and progressive and connection.
And so you can create that story. And then have that. so in other words, like the drama comes from that person is bad, that person is wrong because they're not doing things the way that I would do it.
Mike Goldman: much of that is, well, I mean, maybe what if it is a role just to keep with it, with this example, what if the role
is in is one where data is critical, right? Then it's yes, there's
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah,
Mike Goldman: but does that, that seems to go beyond just style and
Robyn Hatcher: right.
Mike Goldman: they're not right for the role.
Robyn Hatcher: Exactly. Yeah. And that's whatwhat, that sometimes that needs to happen and that's not even drama. That's just leadership. You know, it's like, okay, that's the wrong person for this bus seat right now. So we're going to get that person off the bus and we're going to tell, and there, and.
And I have found, however, that because my love and my, my, my pieces communication, I have found that there are ways that you can communicate certain things that can then sort of shift the person's story and this shift the person's view so that they can see things slightly differently. And yes, there are some times when there is a completely the wrong person.
Now that's like one aspect of drama, but you know, there are tiny little things like drama, like just complaining. Gossiping, all of that kind of stuff that leaders kind of throw under the carpet, sometimes it's like, Oh yeah, I'm going to come and vent. Sometimes venting creates more drama. You know, you allow people to vent and then they get stuck in that story that they're telling themselves.
And then that story gets bigger and they get very immersed in the truth of that story It goes by, then they go and they talk to somebody else about that drama and that story. And then that creates a whole culture that is not trusting each other, not valuing each other, not seeing through. And so we have to take responsibility and have some sort of commitment to valuing and seeing people as they are and not just judging and complaining.
Mike Goldman: I want to dig into you giving some examples of drama, but is there good drama versus bad drama or in the way you
define drama, is it all bad?
Robyn Hatcher: no, there is some good drama. It's like, Hey, I used to write for the soaps, right? So like when I was writing for soaps, I had to create like the storyline and the plot in the characters. And so that's what happens in the, in, in good drama is like, Oh, there's a great, interesting character in this scene.
How can I pull the best out of that character. And then together we create a wonderful scenario, you know? So there's that part of drama and, it's like what we're doing in the culture now, most of the time drama is negative and the excess of drama is negative. So anything done to excess is going to be negative.
And that's why soaps versus like a, just a regular, television show or Soaps are so, you know, expanded and, bigger than life. And that's what happens with drama in the workplace when it is going against. But there is some kind of drama like characters, putting the right characters together and getting a really beautiful love scene.
You know, it's like, hopefully not a,
Mike Goldman: Hold on. I'm calling HR right now.
Robyn Hatcher: I know. Right. Right. And that's what, you know, our board was that my board this year is like we had immense love for each other because we saw each other for what they were. Oh, wow. That person's really good at that. Oh, let me lean into that person for this and let me lean into that. So that could be like, if you want to look at it, like that could be the great drama parts of it.
You know?
Mike Goldman: conflict? to me,
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah.
Mike Goldman: is, you know, there, there is a school of thought that is like, Hey, this is business. Don't get emotional. you know, and I'm like, screw that, you know, there's nothing wrong with getting emotional. I am fine if a leader is pounding their fist on the table, cause they really believe in something. But in my mind, the, where it goes over the line and I want your thought where it goes over the line is. when there's conflict, even arguing about an idea, to me, if that's done in a respectful way, that's good drama. But when it becomes conflict and arguing that is more personality based, then that's bad.
That's not the only of bad drama, but how do you fit kind of, you know, conflict, even if it's sometimes gets heated
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah.
Mike Goldman: where does that fit on the drama spectrum?
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah. The thing with conflict when it gets heated and what you're talking about, I totally agree. Like there, there has to be conflict because like we said, if we're looking for diversity, we're going to have diverse communication sides. We're going to have a diverse types of thought. So you're going to have conflict.
And so there is good conflict. And when it goes overboard and is exactly like you said, is like, you are blaming the person. And not the situation and that's what really happens when we're not having an organization. And I know you do a lot of team building with that, where the teams respect each other as they are. And so if they respect each other for who they are and as they are, when the conflict comes on, we're not attacking you as a person.
we're having a different discussion around your ideas. And one of the techniques I like to give is like I give something that I call the love technique. You want to listen. You want to understand. You want to validate what's being said.
And then you express or explore what your differing opinion is. And so when you're doing a love, you can do it. That's conflict. You know, that's how you can deal with conflict without yelling, without like digging your heels in by showing the love for each other by understanding and then moving forward.
And the other thing that I love to share with people around conflict is how important curiosity is. You know, we negate curiosity these days. So much,because I feel like I'd like to call it maybe the Google generation is like, I'm not going to ask any questions because I feel like I can look it up.
But the curiosity and one of the things I tell all my clients and all of my leaders is when somebody does something that you disagree with or feels like drama to you get curious. Why are they doing it? What is going on? What is the story behind that? Not just that person's a bad person, they have really bad ideas, I gotta get rid of them.
Start asking questions. Start really figuring out what could be behind that, and what could the story be that you're believing that is not actually happening.
Mike Goldman: I love that, and I think to get curious, it's got to start with a belief about the other person they have positive intent. That, I call it the law of positive intent
Robyn Hatcher: Right. Yes.
Mike Goldman: that
everyone's just, everyone's just trying to do the best they can with the resources they have. And if you believe that, to your point, instead of immediately getting angry, we get curious as to, huh,
Robyn Hatcher: the best they can, I wonder why they believe the answer is different than mine.
Mike Goldman: Maybe there's something I'm missing. So let me ask questions
Robyn Hatcher: Exactly.
Mike Goldman: that.
Robyn Hatcher: Exactly. Yeah.
Mike Goldman: so you gave some examples the love acronym and curiosity, but let's kind of step back. So if we've got,if. If I'm a leader and I've got too much drama on my team, maybe it's, you know, maybe it's between two people.
Maybe it's this click over here and this click over here, but I'm a leader in the organization and I see that there is drama that is harmful to the culture drama, that's harmful to reaching our vision.
What do I do? is there kind of a step by step or approach? how do I handle that?
Robyn Hatcher: So you want to get to the root cause of it. And I feel like that curiosity is really going to be important part for the leader. And one of the, the parts of curiosity is like, one of the things that I will do is I will have each leader assess who's on their team, assess their communication style. Like I have, I have an assessment tool that I call actor types is based on my books is based on,different types of actors that show up on, film and TV.
so I sometimes will give an overview of what these actor types is. Sometimes I'll use a disc assessment or just have them say, okay, this is the types of people on my team. And so, okay, we'll look at this and then we'll look at who's interacting with whom. What is your primary communication style?
Cause I know we're all varies degrees of different ones. And so what's your primary thing? So then we look at, Is this style really contrasting with that style? If so, how can we adjust the communication so that it flexes and that the other person gets heard? Just like my, analogy of Greek versus German.
It's like, how do I teach that person a little bit of French? Or Greek, so that they can communicate with that person better. How can I then see or show where that communication, disconnect is? Some of the things that I've done sometimes is just showing them, showing a person what the other person is understanding based on their communication style and type.
And then it becomes like, really?why would they think that? And it's like, yeah, because that's how it is. Because that's how our brain is wired. Our brain is wired for survival. And so what's happening here in this drama, in your team, is that person thinks that this person is going to kill them based on the way the tone Or the content or the,the choices of word choices that they're using to communicate.
And when somebody feels like they're going to be killed, they're going to lash out. And so, so really figuring out what that, who those people are on your team, teaching them a communication style, teaching them a way to flex their style or communicate their style. Or sometimes it's just like being out and open, you know, just saying, you know what, Mike, When you say this to me, it makes me feel like this.
And it drives me crazy and I'm going to act like this and or it could say, you know what, Mike, I'm a really loud, I can be really loud and obnoxious. It doesn't mean that I don't like you. It just means that's who I am. So there are some ways of addressing it right out in the open like that.
Mike Goldman: yeah,
Robyn Hatcher: your question?
Mike Goldman: yeah, so we're done. Goodbye. You answered all my questions. so no, this is, so I'm very familiar with disc and I want to come back to
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah.
Mike Goldman: to some of my experience and see if you can help me in the way I think about it.
Robyn Hatcher: but I'm interested cause you've got these actor types, you call them. Get Yeah.
Mike Goldman: examples? make that real for me. What are some of the actor types?
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's on the advertise site.
Mike Goldman: Pesci, De Niro, Who am I?
Robyn Hatcher: A lot of them coincide with some of the disc types or some of the other familiar types. And so we've got our hero, which is our charismatic, Love to be loved. If they had a motto, the motto would be get applause. You know, they walk in the room. They are the center of attention.
People love to love them or be in their presence. They have a lot of influence. That's our hero. And then we have the buddy. Which is the buddy is a type that loves to be friendly with everybody. They need to get along. So their motto is get along. And so they are the ones that are be more like the S type that they are supportive.
They are loyal. They also, and I'll get to that in a minute. Then are the third part is the third one is our superhero. Superhero is different from the hero because that the superhero is like, I want to get it done. Bye. I got it like this.
Mike Goldman: ID
Robyn Hatcher: right in,
Mike Goldman: disc scale. Yeah.
Robyn Hatcher: yes. and then our last one is our whiz kid, which would be our C, you know, our whiz kid is the one who loves data, loves strategy, loves processes.
their motto is get it right. Whereas his superhero is get it, get it done. And so the way that I describe it, you know, when you write for, TV or you write for film, there's always the fatal flaw. You know, you can't write a script without your hero having a fatal flaw because then nobody would believe it.
So everybody lives happily ever after. It's like nobody, it's boring. And so all of these characters, no matter how great they are in the workplace or as leaders, they all have a fatal flaw that if they lean too much into one type that comes out. And so if you've got the hero type, you know, they're charismatic and all, and sometimes they rely so much on their charismatic ness, their charisma and all of that, that what happens is they lose their vulnerability and they get really caught up in being the one or the center of attention and their team.
Starts to see them as invulnerable, inauthentic, and they don't trust them. And then, you've got your buddy and just like the buddy, if you're always wanting to be liked and always wanting people to get along, that fatal flaw is people will step all over you. There's no sense of boundaries.
You don't know how to say no. You don't know how to push back or, you know, get that wrong person off the bus. You keep them on the bus for too long. And then you've got the, the superhero, you know, the superhero is so focused and so direct that so many other types find that aggressive and annoying and mean.
And so the, a lot of times they don't really mean to be mean, but that's how they're coming across. And so that creates really. A lot of drama on a team. And the thing with that, when that drama happens, that's when people, and I have a couple of clients with this is happening. That's when people start talking amongst themselves, like the grapevine start starts happening.
And then it's like a termite. Just wrote a piece about it's like a termite and you don't know what's happening People are complaining behind your back because a superhero isn't listening or sometimes it even happens with the hero. They're not listening So all these termites get together in another piece of the wood and start complaining
Mike Goldman: exactly,
Robyn Hatcher: ,yeah,yeah, exactly.
Exactly. And then the whole culture starts falling apart. It's like what happened? I was just being a good leader and then the WizKid is like there's so much detail that Most people don't need the detail and you get lost in the detail and you get lost in being so analytic that people don't see you as a human being.
They don't see you valued. They don't feel like you value them. And so that can really ruin a team and a team culture because the, their, the Wizkid is so focused on the facts or giving too much information that, you know, nobody. Really cares about
Mike Goldman: how do you
Robyn Hatcher: apart. Yeah.
Mike Goldman: or where do you draw the line between using, whether it's the actor types, which I love or disc, do you draw the line between. Understanding who you are and others and using that for good. and, you know, I see that very clearly, but I have also seen almost just as much people using it as an excuse to act like an ass. It's like, you know, I
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah.
Mike Goldman: I know I sound, I'm a high D I'm always going to be that way. It's like, no, it's not an excuse to be a jerk, but I have seen so many people using it in that way. So how do you help individuals, especially leaders make sure they're using it for good as opposed to using it to make excuses for bad behavior.
Robyn Hatcher: I love that question. Cause I'm so tired of people saying, Oh, I just want to be my authentic self. It's like, come on.
And what I like to call it is aligned authenticity.
What we need to do is align our authenticity for the need or the place or the situation that you're in. And if it's not aligned, then don't bring it. And so I love that question.
And one of the ways that I answer that is like, The best leaders have to be Meryl Streep. And when you think about Meryl Streep, you know, her natural actor type would be a buddy, but Look at her and Devils Wear Devil Wears Prada.
Look at her in all those other films. She can morph and adapt her style into whatever is needed in the situation so that the audience believes her, so that the director believes her and casts her, and so that the movie thrives. That's what a good leader needs to be. No matter what your style is, you need to know how to flex.
In order to show up in a style that your team needs at the moment to show up at in a style that particular person needs or the situation or your client needs in the moment. And that's not about being inauthentic, it's about being a good leader and knowing how to flex and adjust so that you can be effective no matter what your natural style is.
Mike Goldman: that.
So it's about that adaptability. It's about the flex.
Robyn Hatcher: the other, there were two things that come to mind when I think of the actor types in the disc, one we just talked about, but the other is, and this frankly has been my challenge and I am a high D I'm definitely the superhero high D. I can remember years ago in, I back in my consulting days working for Accenture,
even called Accenture back in the late eighties. And I have always had this ability where one of, one of my,One of my real skills is I could take a complex situation and simplify it down.
Mike Goldman: And I remember sitting in a group of folks and there was a woman at the whiteboard who was on my team who was trying to figure out this problem and writing all this stuff down. And I'm like, this is simple. and I got up and I literally grabbed the marker out of her hand, told her, asked her to sit, I don't know, I probably told her to sit down, and I said, look, all we have to do is A, B, C. Does anybody see it any differently? And everybody went, yeah, that's right. I, and I thought, What a great job I just did, not knowing I just crushed this other person. How many of the other folks, even though they thought I was right? How many of them thought, what a jerk, you know, I'm
Robyn Hatcher: I know.
Mike Goldman: they
Robyn Hatcher: Exactly.
Mike Goldman: so,
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah.
Mike Goldman: I, this has hit me loud and clear. and the challenge I've always had, even after going through, Years of training on this kind of stuff and doing neurolinguistic programming where it's more than just community understanding. If someone looks up into the left or down into the right and all
Robyn Hatcher: Right.
Mike Goldman: And frankly, I'll be honest, I am so focused on me and what I want to say that I learned this stuff. I've never gotten good at actually paying attention. Like I know when I meet someone, there are questions I could ask to figure out real quickly whether they're a D and I and S or a C or what, or now that I know the actor types, you could figure that. But I'm
Robyn Hatcher: on what I want and I'm a coach, damn it. I ought to be better at that. But I'm so focused at what I want that, even though I learned this and I learned this and I was certified in disc, it's just never front of mind. So How do you help people help me? You know, how would you help me make sure that I'm actually using this versus learning it and saying, Oh, that's really interesting.
Mike Goldman: And then throwing it away. Yeah.
Robyn Hatcher: I love that question because it's so true because I mean, what you said is like, that's a problem with human nature. And that's a problem with team. That's a problem. We're together. We're all focused on me. It's all about me. And why should I care about somebody else? And, then that comes into emotional intelligence.
And so really upping that emotional intelligence portion of it. And like with the NLP is to actually be able to feel it viscerally. And that's one of the things that I've been working on with a lot of my, executive Coaching clients. It's like to just to take a deep breath and feel where you feel it.
You know, it's like because you feel when you're triggered, you know, it's like eventually if you really keep thinking about it, if you keep, you take just count because that whole brain science thing is like we react very quickly. However, I think in one, there is one fifth of a second between the stimulus and the reaction.
And so within that time, you have one fifth of a second. It doesn't seem that long, but it can be when you look at the Olympics, it can be, you know, it's like to take that deep breath and think, okay, where am I, how am I feeling? What's my body feeling? What, how do I really want to react? And then do, and then, and it is like training and I've learned so much about training a puppy because we just got this puppy, you know, and it's like, it has to be repeated.
so many times before it gets in their body before, before it even gets into my body, you know, of like how to train them. And so it really is that kind of thing that, okay, I'm going to consciously and one of the exercises I give my executive coaching clients is like, you know, just take a week, don't do anything for a week, take a whole week to observe, you know, take that week to observe.
a conversation. How are you feeling about it? How does it feel in your body? what? Oh, that's weird. Get curious about why they said that. And then you know, you're building up your vocabulary. It's almost like with acting and drama, you're building up with the character. Every time, you know, your voice is, You've got a script to rehearse.
The director has to ask the actor, how does it feel to you? And that's why there are so many rehearsals. And that's why, you know, I'll do role plays with people, during coaching or doing, training sessions. That role play with somebody is like, Oh, get it in your body, get it in your body, and it because I feel like it's that there's that connection.
You know, there is like the mental, we can think it, but until we've learned it until we've lived it and experienced it, it's not going to stick.
Mike Goldman: And it's interesting. You say emotional intelligence and,
Robyn Hatcher: basic, but one of the things, again, back to this. pretty intense neurolinguistic programming,
Mike Goldman: NLP training I did a number of years ago. Part of what we did, and it was the guys in the group that had a bigger challenge with this. There was an exercise we
Robyn Hatcher: of different points you had to say, you know, what feeling you were having. And,
For a lot of us, it's like, you know, are there more than three feelings? Like there's, there's happy,
Right.
Mike Goldman: happy, there's sadness, there's anger, like what else is
Robyn Hatcher: Right. Right. Right.
Mike Goldman: I remember, I don't have it anymore, but right on my corkboard over my desk was this continuum of like a hundred or 150 different emotions and just like, no, there's also joy.
There's also, you know, there, there's all these different and literally just. Understanding how to define the emotion you're having sounds like a really simple thing, but for some of us, it's not so simple
Robyn Hatcher: It's really, yeah, because the main thing of emotional intelligence, I did NLP training as well. The main thing of emotional intelligence is self awareness. And the interesting thing is like there's so many, there's such a new discovery around emotion these days. It's like there is not one size fits all emotion either.
You know, so, so you've got this chart and your joy is going to look completely different than my joy. And it's not even going to read the same necessarily, but there's some really great books on the people who are studying emotions like, because a lot of emotions are based on the first time you've experienced it, you know, so if the first time you've experienced anger has to do with this, like, Loud, awful, like that's your association with anger, whereas somebody else may not have, discovered or felt anger until they were like 12 or 13 years old, you know?
And so it's a whole different type of anger. So it's very interesting emotion is like identifying. And so one of the things that's been coming up a lot, it's sometimes I feel like a therapist I'll have these clients be triggered by something, a leader is like triggered by something.
And then I'll just ask really simply, it's like, what does this remind you of? Okay. And a lot of times it'll go back to a family situation, you know, somebody who treated them differently as a child, you know, and they don't realize that they are being triggered by a leader or a conversation or, an encounter that is just Immediately bringing them back to something in the past that they thought they had dealt with, you know?
And so it's really important to realize that. And that's the other thing about the drama piece is like, when you're an actor, you're taught to like, go back into your emotions and figure out. What you were feeling so that you could bring that emotion forward. And so what we want to do as leaders is almost go in reverse and like, you know, like see what that emotion is, see where it triggered and see, it's like, oh, that is not my uncle Tom right there.
That's Mike Goldman, you know, it's like, okay,
Mike Goldman: get this from leaders all the time who are like, they're like, I'm not sure why I'm so frustrated by that. But
Robyn Hatcher: right,
Mike Goldman: this
Robyn Hatcher: right.
Mike Goldman: and I know it was the wrong. I don't know why I'm
Robyn Hatcher: Yes, exactly.
Mike Goldman: that out.
So, so we talk about communication styles and I know Robin, and I don't know if these are synonymous or if it's different thing, but you also talk about understanding somebody else's psychological needs. Is that similar to the communication styles or is that now a different animal we're talking about?
Robyn Hatcher: yeah,there's that whole psychology between, um, we react for reward and we act against threat. We go towards reward. We go against threat. So when you think about it is there are these emotional needs that people have in the workplace that when they are not met, They go into their survival mode and then they get triggered and it's something that I call the ICU needs and I call them ICU needs for two reasons.
One is because it's intensive care, the alphabet ICU is like sometimes these needs need intensive care and the other thing is to counteract sometimes the ICU needs is to actually be seen. You know, I see you needs, you know, and so some people have a really high need and
they coincide with the types, but they're not exactly matched. But so some people may have a need to feel important all the time, you know? And so when you're in a situation and you have a high need to feel like you're the most important or that you have higher status and someone is not treating you in that way, that's when you start to act out and you don't like, What's going on?
And because your survival seems to be tied to the fact that you want to be important. Like if you're not important, something in your brain says, Oh, I'm not going to survive. I'm going to die. You know, and it's all based on that. And so somebody does something that undermines your importance. Like, Oh, I'm furious.
You know, so some people have that and then some people have a high need for for connection. so those are the people, similar to the buddies, with that high need for connection. And you walk into an office and you don't say hello to that person. That person's day is completely ruined.
You know, it's like, okay. Robyn hates me. I don't know what I'm doing. And so their productivity and everything falls away, you know, so that's a psychological need. There's inclusion, the need for inclusion. There's a need for clarity, you know, having everything very clear. There's a need for independence.
people need to be autonomous. They don't want, they don't want to be micromanaged. So those are the people that if they don't have choices, they If they don't have a leader that gives them, autonomy, a little bit of autonomy, they're going to feel like their survival is threatened. And so they're going to act out accordingly.
And then, we've heard a lot about it with the younger generation and a sense of, need for purpose. And a lot of us need. Purpose. We need to feel like what we're doing matters. And that's why one of the main things I feel like leaders need to do is talk about the why behind their giving an instruction.
And so many, it's so simple in some ways, but there's so many people that don't do it. You know? It's like, just go and do this, but why? How is that affecting the company? How is that affecting our numbers? How is that? affecting or impacting the world or whatever. And some people need that and when they don't need it, they feel, psychologically unsafe.
Mike Goldman: is it true to say there are probably a set of needs that we all have at some level, at different levels
Robyn Hatcher: Yes.
Mike Goldman: And then there's probably, so there's a set of needs we all have but they are at different levels
So that makes us unique. And there may be a set of needs that, well, you know, this person has that need, but this, these two people don't have that need.
So bottom line is.we have different needs at different lower or the same needs at different levels or different needs. So as a leader, how do we start to understand, God, it'd be really easy. If we all had the same needs at the same level, write a book about that. We'll all
Robyn Hatcher: right,
Mike Goldman: understand that we can act accordingly, but
Robyn Hatcher: right, right.
Mike Goldman: we are all so unique. a leader, what can we do to better understand the psychological needs of the individuals on our team?
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah, it's, it's similar for the typing is like, you want to listen, you want to make sure that you're listening and paying attention to what people are either coming back at you with people are asking questions about people are, reacting to, you know, so if people are, if somebody comes to you and constantly asking about what is this thing, why are we doing this?
Then you know that they have a higher need for purpose. If somebody is like, so when's my next raise, you know, so how far do I, you know, that they have a stronger need for importance, but there was something that you did just physically that made me realize, think about an analogy. And it's true.
It's like, with all these needs, it's like, a sound mixer, you know, it's like when you have a sound mixer. Because we all have these needs. It's like in some, up here. And then different days, we have different, it's like, okay, let's mix the sounds like, Oh, Ooh, it's off today. It sounds very dissonant.
And how can we then play music that everybody can enjoy? because you want to hit as a leader, you want to hit on all these needs anyway, because everybody, there's somebody's going to need it at some point. And then when you're working individually, I think, okay, that person needs this at this time. So it's really being a great musician is feeling, being a great sound mixer or something so that you can hit all of these levels at some sort of time and being aware of them at some point in time.
And let's face it, we're not always going to get it right. And it's not our job to always get it right because people have to take responsibility for their own needs as well and being able to communicate what they're not getting. And so a lot of times it's like when we're talking about types and shifting and flexibility, I also feel like we, we want to be real in the fact that the onus falls on both parties.
Mike Goldman: Yeah. So it's as an individual, it's on you to. Help your team, your peers, your leader, your direct reports, help them know what your needs are. Don't make them guess, but as a leader and just as a team member, it's also your responsibility to listen. And just like disc or the actor types,
Robyn Hatcher: assessments out there.
Mike Goldman: I know as well, I remember years ago, I took an assessment called the values assessment. And it gets
Robyn Hatcher: it is. It was like. Seven key values and it wasn't whether you
Yeah.
Mike Goldman: it was what level do you value those things and
Robyn Hatcher: yes, exactly. Yeah, I do a thing on motivation. I have a An assessment on motivators, you know, so it's like what level of the motivation that you have and that, yeah, those values too. Yeah. Yeah. it's fascinating.
And, that whole listening piece is so important. I heard this from, and I don't know, can't remember who it was, but I steal it.
And I really would love to credit to them, but those three levels of listening, you know, it was like so many times as leaders, it's like, we either listen to win, we listen to fix, or we listen to learn. And, when you're listening to win, it's like, okay, my idea is better. Just like you did with that team member.
It's like, I'm listening. I'm not going to listen anymore. I'm just going to go and win this argument, right?
Mike Goldman: she still probably hates me and that was like that was 34 years ago
Robyn Hatcher: Exactly. She's going to be telling you that story.
Mike Goldman: still wants to kill me
Robyn Hatcher: And she's probably telling that story, I had this guy in my team. And then, you know, the story that she's telling, it could be misogyny, it could like, and so we blow all these things up. So she may have dramatized this story greatly, you know, and you were just like wanting to be right. You know, so it's like, yeah, we sometimes you listen to win and then we listen to fix and like, That's also what you were doing.
It's like, well, this is like, okay, I've heard enough. I know exactly where to tell you to go. I know exactly what to tell you to do. Anybody who's married knows that one a lot, you know, it says great leaders are great colleagues, but we really want to lean into is listening to learn and listening to learn both through.
what we see, like the body language, the vocal tone, when is that shifting? When is that changing the questions that people ask how, you know, or the statements that they like, and you've all seen it, we've all seen it, people bringing up the same topic over and over again. And then you think, okay, did they just forget that they brought that topic up again?
But no, what are you learning from the fact that they just brought that up again? There's something happening there.
Mike Goldman: something similar to that I love is there's a book I'm not sure if you've ever read a book called conversational capacity And I can't
Robyn Hatcher: Oh no.
Mike Goldman: author, but the concept of the book,
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah.
Mike Goldman: similar to the three levels of listening you just talked about, talks about when you enter into a debate or some level of conflict or an argument,
Robyn Hatcher: Right. Right.
Mike Goldman: there are two extremes. One extreme they call minimizing. and minimizing, and I've heard
Robyn Hatcher: Right.
Mike Goldman: I work with leadership teams all day every day and I've had leaders go, well, this probably isn't important, but, or I'm kind of new, but, or you know this better than I do, but, or the extreme version of minimizing is keeping your mouth shut. But then the other side is winning.
Robyn Hatcher: Right. Right.
Mike Goldman: when we argue to win and especially when you're leading the team, when you argue to win, which seems like the right thing to do, of course, I should try to win the argument. But when you argue to win, you shut other people up and you don't learn anything. But the sweet spot, which is kind of like you're listening to learn the sweet spot in the middle is when You are arguing not to win.
You're arguing in order to gather the information the group needs to make
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah.
Mike Goldman: The best decision you can make at the time. And that's
Robyn Hatcher: Right.
Mike Goldman: very similar, I think, to listen
Robyn Hatcher: Right.
Mike Goldman: to learn.
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. when I've been listening and reading about a lot of those people who coach debate and negotiation, cause it's a similar thing. It's like you're gathering that information. and if you're really, unfortunately a lot of people use that. In a very negative way that, you know, they get so much information, then they use it back.
to manipulate you, you know, but, that is really important to understand and to hear all of these minute points so that then you can gather it up and say, yes, I hear that. And that whole improv thing. Yes. And which is a very important thing to do as a leader. And that whole winning thing is like, and as you were talking about that winning, it's like, those are the people that have are so high, that level for importance is up here, you know, their level for.
feeling important is up there. And it's like, God forbid anybody knock me off of my status. You know, they're going to, they're going to hear it, and I'm going to argue, even if it's wrong, we've seen that we've seen a lot of information examples of that in the world. Even if it's wrong, I'm going to argue till my death.
Mike Goldman: I had two leaders, two leaders. I've worked with some insane teams and I had two leaders that was, it was actually, they were cousins. The CEO is this woman and the head of product
Robyn Hatcher: Oh,
Mike Goldman: was her cousin. And they would argue like crazy and get very disrespectful because it was family. So they'd lose their minds and they thought it was okay.
And at one point there was shouting at each other. And I realized. They were saying the same thing. And I said, I jumped in the middle, literally jumped in the middle of them. And I said,stop. I said, you do realize you're both agreeing with each other and the CEO pounds her fist on the table. It goes, yes, but it's very important. I said, you guys are insane. Some people want to win. Even if they want to win so bad, they don't know
Robyn Hatcher: they've already won
even if they already won.
Mike Goldman: Exactly right.
So Robin, as we wrap up and you've alluded to some of this, buttell me, tell us a little bit more of how you work with your clients. I know you do keynoting and coaching, but give us a sense of how you add value, how you work with your clients.
Robyn Hatcher: Yeah. One of the ways I work with clients is I can start with a large workshop or training workshop where I teach all of these leaders. leadership skills. I teach how to become self aware, how to be aware of your communication style, how to look at and figure out what other people's communication styles are.
And then I give, actual scripts, you know, because we're talking about drama, right? So I'll give you scripts of how to talk to each other and how to role play a situation so that, it has a more effective ending, feedback, how to give feedback, how to delegate. And so when I work with workshops like that, we give all of that.
And one of the ways that I then will do is I'll have a virtual with the individuals or a smaller group so that we can dig deeper and deeper dive into some of these concepts. And then like I'm doing now with a lot of teams as I'll do one on one executive coaching to really just listen to what are the issues and Part of the coaching I do is so incredibly intuitive.
And I've been at this for so long that I have a toolbox that somebody said that it's full of so much crap. And so somebody will say something to me, it's like, Oh, this is the tool you'll need here. And then we'll talk about it. And so we'll talk about what a situation that's come up is like, and just asking questions.
So yeah, it's all about
The skillset and the communication and the leadership and the helping people feel seen, heard, and valued is like the basis for everything. And so I help the client feel seen, heard, and valued. And I help them see, hear, and value the people with them and give them the tools in which to do that better.
Mike Goldman: This is all going to be in the show notes, but if people want to find out more about you and all your services, what, where's the best place for them to go?
Robyn Hatcher: One of the better places is LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn. Hit me up on LinkedIn, hit me up on my website, RobynHatcher.com, Robin with a Y. And, yeah, I'd be thrilled to have a conversation about how we can lessen the drama in your life and in your workplace.
Mike Goldman: Definitely take her up on that. Robyn. Thanks so much. This is great. And I always say, if you want a great company, you need a great leadership team. Robin, thanks for getting us there today.
Robyn Hatcher: Thank you so much, Mike, for having me. It's been fun.