Self-Leadership for Leaders with Cait Donovan & Owen Fitzpatrick
Watch/Listen here or on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts
“One of the biggest mistakes I see leaders make in their own wellness journeys is assuming that because they're in the lead, they're supposed to be able to be in charge of everything all the time and not need any help. You need a community outside of the team of the people that you're building in order to support you so that you can support the team of people that you're building.”
— Cait Donovan
The Ripple Effects of Neglecting Self-Care in Leadership
Misalignment between brain and heart waves due to lack of self-care can spread stress and dissonance within the team.
Resulting consequences include increased complaints, inter-team gossip, blame-shifting, and decreased trust and creativity.
Ultimately, the team structure disintegrates, leading to burnout and overall dysfunction.
Strategies for Leaders to Manage Stress and Improve Self-Care
Cultivate an agency mindset by focusing on what you can control and influence rather than fixating on what's beyond your control.
View stress not solely as a detriment to your health but also as a potential catalyst for growth. Embrace the idea that stress can have positive outcomes and contribute to personal development.
Practical Approaches to Changing Mindsets and Behaviors
Challenge your existing narratives and beliefs by experimenting with different actions and observing their outcomes over time.
Gather data that supports alternative narratives or beliefs that are more beneficial and align with personal and team growth.
Take deliberate actions to break patterns, such as intentionally disappointing others to recognize that prioritizing self-care doesn't jeopardize relationships, leading to a gradual shift in mindset.
Unlocking the Power of Self-Perception in Personal Growth
Actions speak louder than words; self-perception theory suggests we look to our actions to understand ourselves.
Merely suggesting changes like "be more positive" or "relax" lacks depth and understanding of underlying beliefs.
True change requires understanding how beliefs shape our actions and implementing strategies to address them effectively.
Navigating the Positive vs. Supportive Community Dynamic
Be mindful of the influence of the people you surround yourself with; their views and attitudes can impact your own.
Distinguish between being positive and being supportive; while positivity is encouraging, supportiveness involves constructive feedback and empowerment.
Seek out communities that provide both support and diverse perspectives, empowering you while also offering constructive feedback and varied viewpoints.
The Physical Pillars of Leadership Wellness: Sleep, Hydration, and Movement
Prioritize sleep quality and duration as the first step towards self-care.
Ensure adequate hydration by monitoring water intake throughout the day.
Incorporate movement and exercise into daily routines to promote physical well-being.
Thanks for listening!
Apply for a free coaching call with me
Get a Free Gift ⬇️
🆓 The limitless organization short video course
Connect with me
www.instagram.com/mikegoldmancoach/
www.facebook.com/mikegoldmancoach/
www.www.linkedin.com/in/mgoldman10/
I invite you to assess your team In all these areas by taking an online 30-question assessment for both you and your team at
-
Mike Goldman:
This episode is going to be very different than any other episode up until now. It's actually my first episode where we're going to have a panel discussion and the focus of the panel, I'll introduce the folks on the panel and they're surprised. Put something over your face guys so they don't know who you are yet.
Okay, so you don't know who they are, but we're going to have a panel discussion. We're going to talk about how leaders, oh come on, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about how leaders can take better care of themselves so they and their teams could better deal with the ever increasing change that we see out there.
And I'm so excited to have two of my best friends in the world, on the panel, first time ever we're at 60 something episodes, and they're actually my first repeat guests on the show, so very exciting.
So, number one, we have Cait Donovan, who is a speaker, an author, host of Fried The Burnout Podcast, where she gets, what is it, is it 70 trillion downloads a week?
Cait: Yes, that's the accurate number.
Mike Goldman: I think it's up to 70 trillion, and she by the way, is one of the most no bullshit people that I've ever met Cait will tell you how it is whether you like it or not. And the second member of the panel is Owen Fitzpatrick. He is a psychologist, an author, a speaker.
He's spoken in over 100 countries. I think you have a new one coming up that you haven't spoken in. Is that true?
Owen: I've spoken to people in a hundred countries, but like, actually professionally it's been just over 30. But like when I got off the plane in the countries, I did speak to people. It's just, you know, it was like, excuse me, do you know where the toilet is?
Mike Goldman: Okay. So, I do thousands of speaking engagements a year, if we judge it from that. So he has really spoken in over 30 countries. He's host of the Changing Minds podcast. He's a horrible networker, and he's one of my best friends in the world. So Owen Fitzpatrick. Owen, Cait, welcome.
Cait: Thanks for having us.
Mike Goldman: So exciting to do this. And before we dive into the topic. One of the things guys I started doing after you did the show because you were both pretty early guests on the show is I asked on I probably should have told you this before so you can think about it but but good now that you haven't thought about it you'll give a good honest answer.
My question to each of you. And I'll call on you separately.
My question to each of you is, since this is the Better Leadership Team show, what do you believe is the one most important characteristic of a great leadership team? Owen you go first.
Owen: So the characteristic of a great leadership team would be what I call talent, talent density.
Mike Goldman: Oh stop it. He's copying my stuff. It's
Owen: No, no, it would be from my perspective. I think the most important thing would be the ability to collaborate and influence each other effectively. So to inspire each other, to be able to work well with each other and to be there for each other. To me, when we talk about a leadership team, that's the most important element.
Mike Goldman: the wrong answer, but it's a really good try. Okay.
Cait: I'm gonna go with trust.
Mike Goldman: That's a good one. No, they were both good ones.
Cait: the leadership team characteristic as, as trust, you, oh, and you said something within your words that I agree with heavily and for the, in that trust is part of like, everybody knows that somebody's got their backs. It doesn't mean that the whole team has everybody's back, but it means if we're looking at a team of five or six people, each of those people has another person within the team that's going to support them, that there are studies, loads of studies that tell us that when we have that one person on our team, the entire team becomes stronger.
So when everybody has that person and everybody can lean into that trust, then we open up the doors of creativity. We have creative problem solving. We have clear and transparent communication, etcetera, etcetera.
Mike Goldman: Love it. I probably asked that question about 45 times now. And it's amazing that I get different and I've probably gotten 35 different answers. So I guess that tells me it's a pretty good question. So, so let's dive in.
And as I said, we're going to talk about how leaders. How and why leaders should better take care of themselves so they can take care of their teams and enable their teams to to deal with all the change that we deal with all the time and actually want to start off with the negative.
I want to start off making the case as to how important this is. Versus, Hey, what are we gonna need to do? And we'll talk about specific things we need to do. But Cait, let me ask you first, and then Owen, I'm gonna ask you the same question. What, happens? What's the impact? If leaders don't prioritize self-care, self-management, what impact does that have on them?
What impact does that have on their teams?
Cait: So I'm going to go really nerdy with this answer to start off. There are plenty of research studies that let us know that your heart and your brain. Your brain, the waves, the electromagnetic waves that come off your heart and your brain can be measured up to eight to ten feet outside of your body. When those things are not resonating with one another, so when you're not caring for yourself and your brain and your heart are going different directions, when your values aren't aligned, when your health isn't taken care of, and there's dissonance within you, that is the energy you are providing your team.
And that sounds woo woo a little bit, but it's not. We can literally measure this dissonance in a room. So when you are not caring for yourself, you are literally patient zero, spreading a contagion of stress and dissonance in your team.
Mike Goldman: And then, and, and then what's the result of that,
Cait: I mean, my, all of my work surrounds burnout. So I would say eventually everybody burns out, but before we get to burnout, we get a lot of complaining. We get inter team gossip, we get blame, we get lack of responsibility, we lose trust, lack of creativity, things just disintegrate. The whole team structure starts to disintegrate.
Mike Goldman: Owen, and what do you think?
Owen: I think, I think Cait's spot on the term that I usually use, which is pretty much what you mentioned, Cait, which is emotional contagion. The research shows that whatever you feel, the people around you are likely to feel as well. And all you have to do is go to, you know, a big sporting event and you're around other people and everyone's so excited.
Generally, the reason why watching something live like that surrounded by other people that are all feeling very intensely is so powerful is because those feelings are contagious. What this then leads to is, as Cait mentioned, it leads to eventually often burnout. But even in the intermittent, those behaviors that you mentioned, Cait. The complaining, the stressing, the anger, all that, that sort of stuff that also plays a big part in influencing what goes on inside our head.
Cause we're talking to ourselves constantly anyway. So if you're not communicating with anyone else, you're communicating with yourself. And so what invariably happens is, is that everyone's talking to themselves and then they're talking to other people. And sometimes what you're saying to yourself when you're stressed is.
The beginning of what you then start to say to other people. So it's a reflection of what's going on inside your head. So I'm pissed off about something and therefore I take it out on you. That this whole expression of taking it out on you. And the more that we fall into the trap of doing that, the more what happens then is, is that we piss other people off and which turn then negatively impacts how other people are dealing with.
And if we take it back to leadership teams, that means that all of a sudden that's the disintegration of what Cait mentioned, which is trust. And so before you know it, because of what's going on for me, because of how I'm feeling, I'm then communicating that out. And while that might make me feel a little better in the moment, it's then causing a chain reaction.
Whereby now all of a sudden, the leadership team itself starts to go in a negative spiral. And what people don't realize is that we're always going in either a negative spiral or a positive spiral. We're always going in a negative direction or a positive direction. And it really comes down to the decisions that we make as to how we communicate with each other.
But Mike, from your perspective, you must have found in coaching great leadership teams and helping empower them, that a big part to play isn't just, you know, being able to be strategic about the year and make good decisions. A large part, my guess is, in your experience, is about how they communicate with each other and the fact that they don't just allow themselves to erupt with emotions.
Would that be fair?
Mike Goldman: Yeah, a, I have a great example of that that I was thinking about. You know, as you both were talking, um, is have a client that I worked with recently and it's a newer client. And, and when I say client, it was the CEO and the CEO's direct reports. It was a whole leadership team. I was spending two days with them and I had to pull the CEO aside.
During the morning break to let him know to make sure he knew that the look on his face every time he thought someone asked a dumb question or was speaking too long or disagreed with him that just the look on his face. Was causing his leadership team to shut down. So it's, so, so I buy that, you know, the woo woo stuff, Cait, maybe woo woo, but I buy it, you know, from a vibrational standpoint, but, but it comes out in sometimes the way people speak, I've seen leaders be really short.
With their people, not so much because they're angry at their team or an individual person, but they're frustrated with whatever went on. Last night at home or this morning or whatever it was, um, or they're feeling tired because they didn't get enough sleep or whatever it is. I've seen that come out in anger, come out in frustration, impact the other team.
And I've also seen that impact the level of creativity. Of a leader and I say CEO because that's who I work with but if you're a leader of a team this impacts you It impacts creativity because when you're not taking care of yourself and you feel stressed or even if you're at burnout or approaching burnout. You kind of just want to get the conversation over again, and you have no time for the bullshit of other people and their ideas, which, by the way, is exactly what you need.
Are you just trying to get the conversation done? And it just, it it impacts the leadership team at such a high level. You know, if a leader is feeling negative by the time it cascades down to everybody else, they're 5X more, more negative and beaten down than the leader is.
Owen: To me, there's one thing that I just wanted to mention. I want to get both your perspectives on this. So, a lot of times we talk about, you know, the problem is stress, or in your case, Kay, you'd be working with people, the problem is burnout. And we act as if this is the end result. So you go into stress or you end up burnt out, right?
And it's almost like that's the enemy. But to me, one of the interesting bits of research in the area of neuroscience is This notion of affective realism and affective realism is the notion that whatever we're feeling dictates and determines How we experience the world so, you know, we joke around about being hangry, right?
I'm angry when i'm hungry or tangry i'm angry when i'm tired I haven't slept as you mentioned mike or i'm tanxious i'm anxious because I haven't slept and i'm starting to overthink But it's it's it's the reality the way in which we internalize experiences You Uh is largely influenced by the Biological way in which we're feeling at this moment in time So I think a big mistake a lot of people make is they go.
Oh, we need to cure stress We need to figure out how to change the way, you know this and once we've done that it's great Not realizing that every single time we're in that state. We're also forming beliefs. We're also developing an idea of what's going on So, you know for me, it's a big part to play is to understand how you experience You Work when you're feeling one way is a totally different reality than when you're experiencing work when you're stressed or when you're starting to burn out or when you're anxious or worried or fearful of your job.
I'd love to hear from from from either of you About your perspectives on that especially Cait when you're dealing with burnt out How do you see that
Cait: Well, the interesting thing, when we started talking about this, I was looking for a research article, um, because it hit me that, This was just recent that there's a study that shows that for every 45 minutes of sleep elite that a leader doesn't get the night before. There's a drop in the level of psychological safety for their team. So there are actual measurable effects for when a leader does not take care of themselves well. And so right now we're just talking about sleep, but we could talk about a myriad of things. So for every 45 minutes of sleep that a leader doesn't get the night before, the psychological safety of their team drops.
I think I was trying to find the exact number, but I couldn't, I couldn't get through the article fast enough, but it drops some, some like significant percentage. Oh, there it is. For every 45 minutes of sleep debt accumulated as measured by a whoop fitness tracker, There was an experience of a 5 10 percent decline in performance on tasks requiring mental control the next day and a 10 percent drop in psychological safety of the team. This is not, we're, I think that what's really important about digging into research like this is that we're not saying that leaders need to be well because we think it's a good idea. Leaders need to take care of themselves because it measurably affects the performance and ability to be creative and to show up fully at work of their teams.
Owen: and I think the the key element there is it's not even just on that day So you might think to yourself? Yeah. Well, it's one day. I had a bad sleeping day What are you going to do? But the problem is is that the way people experience reality because of that they then learn conclusions So for example, uh, the three of us are working together.
I come in i'm pissed off because I haven't got enough sleep I then start to, you know, Mike makes a mistake immediately because I'm in that pissed off humor that mistake I make into a bigger deal that it is all of a sudden I start looking and thinking to myself, well, Mike, maybe, you know, he doesn't cut it.
Maybe he's not good enough. Like, all of that is possible for me to do inside my head because I'm in that emotional state. So it's not just in the moment. Okay, you know, the performance is dropped or that. To me, it's also about, okay, so what, what, what will that lead to in the future if we're not taking care of ourselves in those ways?
Would you agree, Mike?
Mike Goldman: I would and I want to get to some of the how to like.
So how do you do it? It's obviously got a big impact. And and by the way, I think we can have an interesting discussion for another 2 hours. Just talking about the impact. Right? There's more to say, but but I do want to get to how how should folks start.
Thinking about it, because when you think about, all right, how do I take better care of myself? So I'm, I'm a better me as a leader. And that's going to have this impact on my team for, especially for folks that are dealing with a lot of stress right now, which is most leaders. That seems like an overwhelming thing.
Like, yeah, that's, of course I know I need to take care of myself, you know, okay, smart guy, what do I do? So let me start, Owen, with you, how, and we can get to some very specific tactics. But how should a leader be thinking about this, so it doesn't feel like this overwhelming thing that's outside of their control.
Owen: Well, the first thing is to recognize, and I mean, you kind of hit on it, recognize what is inside their control. We all start at mindset. So the mindset is the way in which you think about what's going on. And so there's a number of different mindsets that are important to, to start to develop or cultivate one.
For instance, is the control mindset or the agency mindset, which is what can I control in this situation? What can I influence in this situation? What's outside of my control. And that's simple. Those three questions. What can I control fully? What is influenceable by me? And then what can't I control or even influence?
That's the first port of call because in that situation then you know what you're dealing with but then also the way in which you think about stress the research shows that When we see stress is something that's going to have a huge negative impact on our physical health Well, it's definitely going to but when we believe that stress itself can have some benefits It mitigates a large amount of the damage of stress.
So this is what I call a sort of, uh, the anti fragile effect. It's popularized by the work of, uh, Aaliyah Crum in the research study she did and the book, The Upside of Stress, by Kelly Begaligal. But in a nutshell, the idea is a paradoxical one. It's this, if I believe stress is good for me, it's not that it necessarily will be.
But it will be a lot less bad for me if i'm experiencing it So, I mean, I think those are the places we start is that we look number one at okay So what can I control? What can I influence? And then You know what is outside of my control so that I can focus more attention because a lot of stress comes from What we've perceived to be and that important word perceived is outside of our locus of control But then also the way in which we even conceptualize stress itself and how we see stress And whether or not we see stress as destroying us, or whether we see stress as a necessary part of growth and improvement and whatnot.
That's, to me, the two places I would start with switching those mindsets.
Mike Goldman: So, so what I'm hearing is kind of two, two, two different things. One is the mindset around, around control and how much you're in control of. And the other gets, gets to what you believe, like, what are your beliefs, which I know Owen is such a big part of what, what you research and what you're writing about.
But one of those beliefs is what do you believe about stress?
Owen: Yeah, and that's, I mean, that's seen as a specific type of mindset, a stress mindset if you will. Right. The research shows that, um, your mindset about even what you're taking in your body, what you're consuming, the food that you're eating has an impact upon your biology. And the same is true in terms of stress.
Your belief about the stress or your mindset about the stress that you're experiencing will, will dictate. I mean, think about it. Every time you go for a run, every time you go exercise, you're putting your body in a form of stress. But you're interpreting that stress is a good thing. And therefore it leads to you being able to build muscle.
It leads you towards being able to boost your immune system, which is temporarily impacted by it. And I don't know, Cait, you could go in a lot more depth into that. But for me, the most important thing is that we need to start with the mindset because all the great techniques, such as mindfulness and, you know, uh, progressive relaxation, self hypnosis, visualization, they're terrific.
But if you don't get your mindset right, then you're just using them as a bandage every time that you find yourself, you know, getting, getting injured. And what we need to do is we need to start from the perspective of we need to learn how to change the way we experience the world so that the world doesn't impact us as negatively as it potentially can.
And then once it actually does get through the mindset, which is our first fortified defense, if you will, That's when we then can utilize the techniques that can help us to deal with the stress in the moment
Mike Goldman: Yeah, and it sounds like it's about, it's about taking control of the stories we tell ourselves,
Owen: Yes say that. Yeah,
Mike Goldman: There you go. I may have somebody say that.
Cait: this is where I fight back a little bit.
Not because I think that it's incorrect, but because I think that there's a missing step. So, when, during our most influential period of brain development in our lives, If we experience high levels of stress, trauma, et cetera, there's loads of things. This is a whole separate episode, but if we experience loads of, of stressful times during those moments, so we're talking about from ages zero to between six and nine, because everybody develops a little bit differently, but let's just call it nine.
Then the way that we interpret stress is not just the story that we're telling ourselves, but is also the biological pathway that we've created in our brain. based on our experiences. So sometimes in order to get to the place where we can change our mindsets, we need to understand that our brains developed in a way that made the mindset we have right now possible and then ingrained it deeper over time because we have a confirmation bias, right?
So if you grow up in a family where One of your parents is incarcerated, and the other one is a substance abuse, has some sort of substance abuse disorder. The way that your brain starts to interpret the situations around you will be different than the way somebody's brain interprets it that didn't grow up in that scenario.
And then, you look for the rest of your life, For confirmation that the things that you believe are correct, and you form brain grooves and pathways and neuronal pathways that prove to you that you are correct. So, changing mindset sounds like an easy task. Change your mind about how you feel about this.
But in order to do it, we have to understand that mindset has, also has a biological component.
Mike Goldman: So how did, so Cait, how do you, how do you impact that? So if it does have a biological component, what does that mean? What do we do?
Cait: If you realize that something is happening and you have a story around it, this is where Owen and I come back together. You have to start proving to yourself that you might be wrong. So you have to try to act differently and get different reactions from people and gather data over time that proves to you that another story might also be true.
Another story that is More benefit or belief that is more beneficial to you, that is more useful to you, that helps you and your team, but you have to gather data over time. So for instance, a lot of, um, a lot of people that end up burnt out are people pleasers, right? They, they're going around the world and they're acting in a way to make sure that nobody dislikes them because that's, that makes them feel unsafe when people dislike them.
So part of the work that we do with people pleasers is we go around and I say, I want you to disappoint at least one person every day. So that you can understand that you can disappoint people, do something that somebody doesn't like, and still be loved, appreciated, accepted, friends with somebody, etc.
And the more you do that, and the more you gather information that you can not always abandon yourself for the sake of someone else, and it's gonna be okay, the easier it will be for you to adopt the mindset that you don't have to do that.
Mike Goldman: So what, so what I'm hearing is, Sometimes it's and it's probably not black and white. Do it this way instead of this way. But sometimes instead of saying, we've got to, we've got to change our mindset. And therefore, then that will that will change our behavior. You're, you're, you're almost acting your way to the new mindset.
You're, you're forcing the behavior 1st. And if that behavior. It gives you that return on investment. You're looking for that will change your mindset
Cait: Yes.
Mike Goldman: and reinforce that that behavior and and create some new habits.
Cait: Which is where Owen and I come together, right? Cause said, you have to change your experience. And then, so this is where we come back together.
Owen: so for me just to I suppose clarify um, because I I agree with everything you said Cait and uh, I always see that that story isn't you know, I I don't see stories that we tell ourselves as being separate to the biological Influences that have happened to us when we're younger. In fact, those stories come as a result all stories come with And emotional charge to the story.
So, you know, whether or not you grew up and you grew up in a single parent family, or you grew up in very poor circumstances, or you grew up with a silver spoon, you're going to have different stories. Some, some stories might be a story of entitlement that, again, has a biological basis in the sense that you're very protected, you have a lot of safe space, you have a lot of psychological safety when you're younger.
So I completely agree with all that. For me, the story we tell ourself is where a lot of it comes down to because the stories that we tell ourselves is based on the beliefs that we have, and the beliefs that we have are based on the stories we tell ourselves in the moment about the experiences. So as I experienced that trauma, it's not just that I go through that trauma when I'm younger.
It's that as I go through the trauma, I'm then telling myself a story about what that trauma means. I'm telling myself a story about who I am because of this trauma. I'm telling myself a story because of the exposure I have to the environment that surrounds me. And so then that story becomes a set of beliefs that become, you know, convictions for me.
And as a result of that, everything I experienced, I experienced through that sort of lens.
To me, the reason why you're Uh technique or the approach you suggested I used to years ago do something similar when I'd work with a client Let's say when I was a therapist I'd work with a client that had no self confidence and really wanted to date more and I brought him out into a Shopping mall and I got him to you know The the game was he was terrified of rejection He had to go up and his goal was to get rejected by 10 different women And that was the goal if he did 10 different women he would win the game
Mike Goldman: By the way. Oh, and when you did that, my wife got really pissed. So don't don't ask me to do that
Owen: Listen, you needed to do it. So important. Well, but at least with you, you know, you knew you'd definitely get rejected but the point the point the point of it was that by by number four or five by the the fourth or fifth, um, Lady that he approached he got that experience. But here's here's the crucial piece And it's one thing that you mentioned, Cait, and I just think your example isn't just evidence, it's evidence with an emotion.
And that's the, that's the reason it's so powerful, is that if I, if I give you data and I give you statistics, again, confirmation bias kicks in, internalizes that in some way. But when you get something that's experiential, like you did, like you described in your case, There's something about that that really influences the story.
I always talk about, you know, if you want to change beliefs at a deep level, it isn't, you know, and, and switching mindset, I'll just push back a little on that. Starting the process of asking the question, what can I control? What can I influence and what's outside of my control? That's a good start as is the way we think about stress, but to actually change your overarching beliefs.
100%. We need to go deeper for me. When we go deeper, we look at the stories that we're telling ourselves, which we both discussed. We're on the same page. We look at the community we surround ourselves with, which is the people. And this is the internal echo chambers as well as the external in the real world.
Who are we around? Cause that's going to influence the beliefs we have. All you got to do is look at conspiracy theory or politics to figure that out.
And then exactly what you said and what you drew attention to there, Mike, is the actions we take self perception theory. We look to what we're doing as a way to be able to figure out who we are.
And so to me, there's the magic in the example you gave Cait is, is really around this notion that. If we want to make changes, we can't just rely on logically going, Oh, switch your mindset. Oh, you know what you need to do? You need to be more positive. You know what you need to do, Mike? I know you're very stressed.
You need to relax as if Mike's going to go, Oh, brilliant. Oh
Mike Goldman: like one of your guru videos,
Owen: that's it. Yeah, exactly. That's the And to me that there's that depth, which I love the example you gave because to me, that's the depth that's missing. So often everyone could preach all these ideas. I'm sick and tired of hearing common sense masquerading as, you know, uh, Oh, this is a genius insight.
Like just do this. But it's not that simple. You need to understand how your beliefs about the world are formed and and how to do something about them, you know,
Mike Goldman: Owen, I want to drill into one of the things you said around community, because what I think of, there's the, there's the component of mindset and behavior and the whole psychological component of it, but I also think there is the, the pragmatic piece of I think what one of the and I know in my own life, one of the most important things I've done from a self leadership self care standpoint is surround myself with the right people and let me be more specific about what I mean by that.
And by the way, part of it is, is, is the two of you and, and, and, and a whole
Cait: Oh, we know
Mike Goldman: Yeah. Remember what I remember? I screwed up. I was before you guys, but really there are many times in my life. When, and this, I'll say this at the risk of it sounding kind of horrible and because it might, but there have been a lot of times in my life where I had to kind of upgrade my neighborhood where, where I was spending, you know, who is it that said was a Jim Rohn?
You're the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with, know, and those 5 people were not always the right people for me. So I think there is such a big part of this. For me in my life has been surrounding myself with the right people, which meant, you know, from a, from a work team standpoint, from a friend standpoint, from a, uh, uh, you know, you know, I, I've had a coach for many years that I just talked to this morning who has changed my life.
Mastermind groups like The one the one that we have. I have a mastermind group of coaches. I have a mastermind group. I meet with, uh, once a month. That's. Uh, 12 different CEOs. We all help each other and frankly, probably most importantly, and I'm not only saying this because she's in another room somewhere and maybe listening in, but most importantly is my wife.
Like there, you know, I've been on this entrepreneurial journey since 2004. I had, you know, regular jobs for 17 years before that, but I've been on this entrepreneurial journey since 2004 and, and I never would have changed that, you know, the smartest move I ever made to start my own business. But, it's been a roller coaster ride, like.
Like I thought I'd never see in my life. And thankfully the last seven or eight have been, you know, pretty good, you know, going uphill, but man, it was a struggle for a long time. And if I didn't have an incredibly supportive spouse. Who said, instead of go get a friggin job and cut the crap said, we're going to figure this out.
You're doing the right thing. I'll do this. You'll do that. We'll get the kids to do this that to me more than anything else surrounding myself with the right people what allowed me to stay to stay sane and stay at not so much stay sane, but stay at my best. Throughout all of this to create what I've created and have the impact on my clients that I'm able to have.
So, so that's just a part I wanted to drill into a little bit as well.
Owen: So for me, I mean, everything you're saying makes a lot of sense and the people you surround yourself with. I think there's one one mistake people make whenever they hear this. So. You know, we know from the research that the people that we spend our time around, we tend to take on board the same kind of views as them as well.
Not, not, not just in forums like groupthink where everyone starts to get on the same page about specific decisions. But in general, we're very much influenced by other people. Even memetic desire is this notion that when we look at other people, we, we, you know, if you, if you're in a building with lots of people, for example, I'm in a building with lots of people with lots of dogs.
It's making myself and my partner, you know, crave dogs more than ever. So we're like, you know, the more you see it, the more you want it. But the missing piece that I think is really important is certainly in the area that I've been in for years, is this notion of being positive, right? And I think there's an important distinction to be made between being positive and being supportive.
So being positive is you can do this. You're wonderful And certainly you do not want to be in a community where people are like negative all the time But I think there's an extreme that's I suppose misunderstood on both sides So if if you surround yourself with people all the time and they're like moaning and complaining and whining and whinging Definitely a terrible group to be part of if you're in a group though, and everyone's super positive all the time That's also not necessarily a useful group to be a part of because again, you might be protected from you know How awful things are at the outside?
But then you develop and cultivate this sort of a denial to, to, to, to, to a degree of what's going on. And to me, the best groups are the ones where number one, you're looking at people that are bringing that, that make you feel supported and empower you, but do so in different ways that you're getting feedback from them.
And you've built a sense of, as, as Cait, you mentioned at the beginning, trust to the point where you're getting feedback that helps you to become better, that challenges you, that you're challenged by each other. And that it's not always easy and that you are able to, you know, give feedback to each other in that way.
And to me, that's a really important distinction. I think so many people are thinking, Oh, I just need to get all the negative people out of my life. Well, not necessarily, you just need to get the kind of people that are going to keep helping you to get better and feel good and feel supported and all that.
And I just think that's an important piece of the community is the community we surround ourselves with should be a community that helps us to continuously get better. And my guess is, Mike, Angela is not always turn around going, you know, you don't wake up every morning. Angela goes, Oh, my goodness, Mike, you're the greatest.
You're my hero. You're so perfect in every single way. I know I don't have that experience, but I have a wonderful relationship whereby I feel better as a result of it. So my guess is, and same for you, Kay, is that it's not just this, you're so great, you're so wonderful hearing what we want to hear. A large part of it is people that believe in our potential.
And that are helping us to get there in whatever way they can. Would that resonate with you, Cait? What are your thoughts?
Cait: Well, I, I think the most important thing that we need to talk about at this juncture is the fact that as the leader, when you're forming a team, your team is one thing, and the people you choose to surround yourself with your community is another. We need people to know that these are two different groups of people.
One of the biggest mistakes I see leaders make in their own wellness journeys Is assuming that because they're in the lead, they're supposed to be able to be in charge of everything all the time and not need any help. You need a community outside of the team of the people that you're building in order to support you so that you can support the team of people that you're building.
These two groups, these are two separate groups and you are not supposed to do it alone. Even though we, there is this strange belief that, well I have this CEO title or this CFO title or CHRO title that now that I'm up here I should have all of the answers that's why they put me here. And it's like, no, no, no. Slow down, restructure your community so that you have the support that you need, and then use that support to support your team. I think that separation needs to be made.
Mike Goldman: That's a great point.
I want to shift gears for, for, for a couple minutes. And, and Cait, I want to ask you, because with your background, you may have the most true knowledge and research. Behind this, but we've been talking about kind of the, the mental and the emotional component of all this, but there's an important physical component of this, whether it's exercise or eating right or sleep, um, help us out with that.
What should leaders be thinking about from a, from a physical component, knowing it may be very different for different people. How should we be thinking of that and how that impacts us and the actions we ought to take.
Cait: Going back to the study I mentioned before, the first thing we're thinking about is sleep, sleep, sleep quality, and sleep length. If you are going to work on nothing else, this is the thing you work on first. After that, we go to water. How much water are you drinking? Are you getting enough liquids in? Are you?
Good job, everybody. Cheers! I have electrolytes.
Mike Goldman: this is vodka, but
Owen: That makes a lot of sense actually, Mike.
Cait: Yeah, everything, everything is clear now, including the vodka. So we're going sleep, we're going water, then we're going movement. Now, a lot of people would have put food ahead of this, but movement comes next in my book. Then comes food. So, but by movement, I don't necessarily mean exercise. This depends on your daily, your daily life, how you're living, what your stress levels are, et cetera.
Like some people just need to be not at their desks so often. It's the sitting all day is not, we can't fix the sitting all day by going for a 5k run in the morning. A 5k run is only going to take you a half hour. That does not do anything for the fact that you're sitting at your desk 9 hours a day. I would rather see you walk in the middle of the day or get up from your chair every 30 to 40 minutes.
Then run in the morning and then sit all day long. So we have to, the, we're not talking about necessarily exercise. We're talking about any, any at like non exercise activity, thermogenesis, this idea that being so stagnant physically is a massive issue. And then we move on to. food after that. But if, if somebody's gonna start, I want sleep first.
Get your sleep going first. You cannot do anything if you're not sleeping well. Because during your sleep, your body's job while you're sleeping is to basically do housekeeping. It goes into your brain and cleans up all your metabolic toxins from all the thoughts and work that you did during the day. It goes into your gut and does the same thing with your food and, Absorbs the nutrients that you need and gets rid of the ones that you don't and You're basically sorting through and cleaning things out If you don't do that and things don't get cleaned out you end up ill bottom line If you do that well, but then you don't drink enough water to keep everything moving through you're still ending up ill if If somebody does nothing else after this episode but improve their sleep hygiene and wake up and drink 16 ounces of water first thing before they do anything else, if that's all they do, I would be satisfied.
Mike Goldman: love it. Love it.
So what I want to do, I feel, I feel like we could probably make this a two hour episode and I want to, I'll save room for us doing another one, but, but I want to go kind of one round through all of us as to, you know, we've talked about the cost of, of not taking care and leaders not taking care of themselves.
We've talked about a couple of different perspectives. Mindset and attitude behaving your way into it. Surrounding yourself with the right people. We've talked about some, some different perspectives on how leaders should think about it. What I want to do now and start with you is if if leaders are going to leave here with 11 specific action, they should take what's the 1 action a leader should take.
Owen: Prioritizing what matters most, and I want to dig into that a bit. Um, because it's kind of a non answer answer, if you will. When Cait says, you know, sleep, um, number one, uh, drink water, number two, um, move, number three, and eat healthy, number four, let's say, Bottom line is all of those are critically important.
And again, if sleep is the most important, sleep is the most important. But the reality is, is that the big problems that leaders are having is they're too busy managing and they're not busy leading. And I mean, they're too busy, not just managing their team. They're too busy managing themselves. I'm managing myself.
I've got me to do list. I've got my projects. I know exactly what i'm supposed to do Oh here I need to go here there and everywhere even managing in terms of what you alluded to k is the exercise I'm managing to do my 5k in the morning. I'm managing to do my boot camp or whatever And to me, leading is a different story.
When we talk about leading a team, we're talking about coaching people. We're talking to empowering people. We're talking about believing in the potential of people. We're talking about being able to inspire people to be the greatest they can be, to be able to build great leadership teams, AKA, you know, Mike Goldman's expertise.
That's what great leaders do. But great leaders internally like self leadership is not just about managing yourself It's about inspiring yourself influencing yourself. It's about figuring out. What do you need to be the very best that you can be? And a large part of that is being able to learn to master the fundamentals, the sleep, the nutrition, the, the, the movement, the water, right?
The hydration, they're the fundamentals, right? We also need to be able to make sure that we're clear of exactly, um, where we're going. We need to know the direction we're going in. We need to understand our team. We need to be able to know what, what we're doing. Time and energy requirements are necessary for us that week.
And what are we going to do for breaks? We need to figure out our rest. And that's the one thing that's never talked about is taking breaks. It's almost like it's seen not a million miles away from the way you were describing it, Cait. It's like, oh, well, you know, I don't need to take breaks or, you know, well, yeah, breaks are a luxury.
Breaks are a necessity, and I'm talking every hour getting a break. I'm talking about being able to switch off when you come home from the office. And this isn't, again, I'm not making a play for self care. I'm making a play for high performance. And that's what people forget is that people are so a lot of leaders I think in high performance work work work because that's the story that has pervaded in our society But actually if you want to be a high performer, you need to lead yourself By prioritizing the most important things that gets you into the best state possible.
You need to prioritize Your team when you want to lead them effectively as well. And so I think the big one action that people need to take, um, or leaders need to take in order for them to be able to handle the adversity that they're facing, the changes that they're facing, the challenges they're facing, is they need to start to prioritize what they're doing for themselves, the fundamentals that Cait mentioned.
As well as being able to ensure that they're carving time out to take time to rejuvenate, to replenish themselves so they could fire in all cylinders. Our brain works with it. There's the ultradian rhythm whereby, um, on a regular basis, we get peaks and troughs of our attention and energy. And somehow we expect that we can go through six meetings in a row, one hour each with no, no break going from zoom to zoom or meeting room to meeting room.
And then we wonder why, oh, I was off today. Maybe I didn't sleep right. Maybe I did not, or maybe you just didn't take a break. And maybe it's a combination of those factors, but when we can start to prioritize the things that matter like that, we can start to become more empowered leaders because we're leading ourselves better and we're leading others too.
Mike Goldman: Oh, and I want to, I want to put a finer point on what, or have you put a finer point on what you just said, getting real specific. So, so when, when a leader, let's literally picture a leader, you know, finishes listening or watching this podcast. And then they're going to go do something. So when you say prioritize, is it literally, should they get a sheet of paper out and say, priority number one is I need to get more sleep.
Priority number two is I'm going to go to the gym tomorrow. Like I want to get really specific. should they do?
Owen: I mean, just to give you an example, because this is not the only thing they could do, and Cait's going to come up with another brilliant example, I'm sure. But in a nutshell, yeah, identify the most important priorities and the priorities are usually what are you not doing? So out of what you've heard today for most of what we've said What is it that deep down in your head you're you're saying to yourself?
Oh shit. I don't do that Right, whatever that is whatever got the little voice inside your head That's the thing you probably put in your priorities. But then and this is the important point step two Schedule it. It's not enough to go, Oh, now I've got my priority list. Okay, great. Well done. Fantastic.
Schedule it, put it in your calendar, make it mandatory and give yourself, I don't know, 10 days, 20 days that no matter what, even if you don't feel any different at all, you're going to keep doing it. You're going to keep drinking those two liters of water a day or three liters of water a day. You're going to keep taking those two, two glasses as soon as you wake up.
And you're going to do that for that. But it's part of your schedule. It's, it's, uh, you know, a deal breaker. It's going to happen no matter what. And so step one, identify the parties based upon what you're not doing, that you heard your little voice say. And then second of all, put it in your calendar. That, that'd be my probably, you know, first, first attempt at giving you an action to take.
Mike Goldman: Excellent. Cait, what do you think? What's the first thing people should do after this podcast to take action?
Cait: Sleep.
Mike Goldman: That's it? Just after I think Cait went to sleep after she said sleep.
Cait: No, I left that there, I left that on purpose. I think that we have this, uh, culture that, that really I'm making up words now, macho fies, not sleeping. Like, I can, I only need four hours, and I only need five hours, like, please, shut, shut up, and go to bed. Figure out how to improve your sleep. That's it. So if that means that maybe you're gonna get a whoop band, or an aura ring, or some sort of tracker to help you figure out where you are, so that you can play with it.
work on something and watch it improve. But if your sleep is affecting the productivity of you and then your team, and then the psychological safety of you and then your team, your sleep is priority number one. Get your sleep going. That's it.
Owen: A lot of people are sleeping on sleep, you know,
Cait: Yeah. Owen, that terrible.
Mike Goldman: We could edit that out. think Let's
Owen: no, no No, you
Mike Goldman: may keep keep that in don't edit it out. We need to embarrass. So,
Cait: think, Mike?
Mike Goldman: um, well, it may not matter because right now everybody went to sleep. So they're not listening to the rest of this episode.
So I love those ideas. I, you know, I always. You know, I always go to the people component, right?
And think a great compliment to what both of you said is I would encourage people to find one or more accountability partners. And if you've got 1 great, maybe you just need to use that person more. Maybe you need to find somebody else. Maybe you need to create a little mastermind group, you know, of folks, but I think finding an accountability partner and using that accountability partner, whether it's prioritizing exercise or whether it's.
Figuring out doing some research on how to get more sleep, whether it's changing your language, because what I thought of, Cait, when you said, you know, people brag, I only need four hours sleep, people always, and by the way, I fall into this trap, people like to brag about how busy they are. Like that's a good thing.
I'm so busy. I don't know. It's like shut the hell up Like you're you're busy because you you're too busy because you're not managing what you need to do in the right way And sometimes oh and to your point earlier those people around you are not just one say oh great idea. Great idea You're wonderful.
Sometimes it's people that say shut the eff up, you know, you're saying this too much. You're talking yourself into this You need to think about it this way, but I think not instead of in addition to prioritizing and sleep, if you could find one or more other people who could help hold you accountable, kick you in the ass when you need it, when you need it, pat you on the back when you need it.
And by the way, you can do the same for them because here's the other thing is I have found. When what one of the things, if not the thing that makes me feel best, even when I feel like everything around me is crap, what makes me feel best is helping someone else. And I know that sounds, oh, like, like, um, you know, it's sexual wonder, but it's true.
Like when we're of service to other people, we feel better. So having an accountability partner is not only for you, it's for that other person. And that's going to bring you up.
Owen: I feel Mike, I'm similar whenever, you know, in terms of what makes me feel best is when you help me as well. So you help somebody else, um, makes you feel good. You helping me makes me feel good. So I think it's, it's a winning, winning approach.
Mike Goldman: At some point, I'll see if I can actually be of some help and we'll see if we'll see if
Owen: One day. We can always hope.
Mike Goldman: Well, this was, this was pretty cool. I like doing this. I like doing this. We, we've got to. We got to do this again. There's so much more to talk about, but, but hey, thank you guys for, for doing this.
And, you know, I always say if you want a great company, you need a great leadership team. If you want a great leadership team, you better know how to lead yourself. So I hope we have, I hope the three of us that have helped you all get I'm not supposed to say you all. I'm supposed to talk, I'm talking to one person, right, when you're on a podcast.
So I hope it's helped you, not you all, I care about the rest of you, but you, I hope it's helped you better lead yourself so you can be a better leader. Cait, Owen, this is awesome. Thanks so much.
Owen: Thanks to me, Mike. Okay.