The Retention Trap: Rethinking Employee Loyalty with Mark Peters
Watch/Listen here or on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts“I believe as the leadership team goes, so goes the rest of the company. So if you don't have that consistent and significant sustainable growth, you've got some work to do.” — Mike Goldman
In this episode, I sit down with Mark Peters, CEO of Butterball Farms and author of The Source and The Retention Trap. We explore how Mark transformed his family business by building trust, supporting employee wellbeing, and launching The Source—a nonprofit that helps workers overcome personal challenges. Mark also shares why focusing solely on retention is a trap and how investing in your people leads to stronger teams and long-term success.
The Importance of Trust in Leadership
Mark emphasizes trust as the cornerstone of a great leadership team.
He shares his experience facing a toxic leadership team and how tolerating mistrust led to company-wide issues.
Open, honest communication, even in tough conversations about capital and pricing, is vital.
I reflect with Mark on how taking ownership and addressing trust issues begins with the leader's behavior.
Mark’s Early Career & Lessons from Family Business
Mark discusses growing up in the family business, witnessing both positive and negative leadership practices.
His father led with a transactional mindset—no health insurance or 401K—treating workers as a different class.
Mark’s Christian upbringing and empathy shaped his belief in treating workers with dignity and respect.
Founding The Source: Empowering Workers Beyond the Workplace
Mark identified many employees struggling with basic needs like housing, transportation, childcare, and medical bills.
He founded The Source to bridge the gap between workers and social services.
The Source acts as a resource conduit, connecting employees with existing community services to improve stability and reduce turnover.
ROI data: Over 22 years, employers see an average ROI of 200%, proving it's not just good-hearted leadership—it’s smart business.
Services provided include:
Housing assistance
Financial counseling & credit-building support
Small-dollar loan programs
Transportation solutions
Nutritional counseling and food access
Direct communication to employers about employee situations to foster grace and retention.
Scaling The Source Model
The Source has expanded beyond Grand Rapids with adaptations across the U.S., including Fresno and Washington.
Mark encourages entrepreneurs to leverage templates and data to implement similar models in their communities.
He believes small/mid-sized business leaders can use their problem-solving superpowers to care for people while strengthening business performance.
Capitalism & Social Responsibility
Mark advocates for a capitalist model with heart: Employers investing in nonprofits like The Source get measurable returns while uplifting communities.
No need for government funding or political affiliation—it’s about creating sustainable, people-centered business ecosystems.
Introducing Mark’s New Book: The Retention Trap
Contrary to traditional thinking, Mark advises NOT to overly focus on retaining employees at all costs.
Instead, prioritize investing in employee growth without attachment to whether they stay or leave.
He proposes:
Building networks of employers who share talent.
Structuring HR bonuses around successful promotions, even if employees leave.
Treating education benefits as essential as health insurance—soon to be a competitive advantage.
Adopting a people-centric, enterprise-centric approach for long-term workforce stability.
How to Connect & Learn More
Interested leaders can:
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Mike Goldman: Mark Peters is the CEO of Butterball Farms, a leading producer of culinary butter and margarine. It was recognized as one of the best and brightest companies to work for from 2018 to 2024. He began his career as a factory worker at 12 and later took over the family business at 30 with a focus on not only financial success, but worker wellbeing.
And we're gonna talk a lot about that today. In 2003, he co-founded The Source, a nonprofit, helping workers overcome personal challenges. He authored two books, the Source, and Coming in June, the Retention Trap. So depending on when you're listening to this, it's either out or about to come out. Mark is a sought after speaker lives in Grand Rapids with his daughter and dog.
and I can't wait to Mark, discuss your journey,and share kind of a, you know, a movement, I'll call it, that you started that, you know, went well beyond your [00:01:00] company. So, mark, welcome to the show.
Mark Peters: Thanks, Mike. I'm super happy to be here today. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Mike Goldman: Yeah, and light. This seems to be an ongoing theme that many of my guests somehow, I either met through Vistage,
Mark Peters: Yeah.
Mike Goldman: which if you don't know and you should, is a kind of CEO peer group mastermind group. If you don't know 'em, look 'em up. So, a lot of my guests are either folks I met because there were in a Vistage group I talked to, or there are other Vistage certified speakers.
So, speakers. So there, there's a theme. but anyway, Mark, so the.
First question I always ask that I want to ask you, is in all of your experience, what do you believe is the number one characteristic of a great leadership team?
Mark Peters: You know what, Mike, I can sum that up in one word. It's called trustand I. I don't mean that lightly. I've just gone through about a two and a half year experience, which kind of led me through a turnaround situation where [00:02:00] we ended up with a high degree of mistrust on our executive team and it filtered down throughout the whole organization.and one of the things that I learned through that process is that as the CEO. I tolerated, an undercurrent of mistrust far longer than I should have. and it turned into some really toxic behavior. Um, and I think that, you know, that's when you and I really connected was. your leadership assessment that talks about toxic teams.
And I tell you, I sat in that meeting and I ranked my executive team and every single one of 'em came up toxic. That was a bad day for me.
Mike Goldman: You. You are welcome.
Mark Peters: the underlying theme when I go back, was really around, is around trust. And, you know, one of our guiding [00:03:00] principles is to communicate openly. And honestly to promote effective teamwork.
And we were not, we were not communicating honestly with each other. and that requires some tough conversations. You know, I mean, not everything is sunshine and roses at the top of a company. You gotta make decisions about assigning capital. You've gotta make decisions about customers and pricing it doesn't always make every department super happy.but you've gotta be able to have those conversations and you've gotta be able to do it in a way that maintains,trust. So I would double down on that statement.
Mike Goldman: Yeah. And I love what you said it was a problem because you tolerated it and Yeah, and what I love about. Hearing that and kudos to you for thinking of it that way, is there are a lot of leaders that, that I meet with that, that, that point the finger [00:04:00] externally. You know, why aren't these people more trustworthy?
Why isn't there more trust? And saying you tolerate it means you understand that if there's a lack of trust, it's stemming from you. It's stemming from your behavior, whether you are not trusting enough to communicate honestly and or your accepting it in your organization. So I love that you're, you took ownership for it.
Mark Peters: Yeah. So that was, that's a big learning. It's a big learning for me.
Mike Goldman: Tell me a little bit about, before we, I definitely wanna dive into the source, which is the nonprofit that you founded and the book, and then we'll talk about your new book and all things around that. but I wanna start off a little bit with your story. So tell, first,tell me a little bit about Butterball Farms.
And then I want to go into kind of your story from a kid growing up in the business. But first, tell me a little bit about the business.
Mark Peters: I always hate those introductions because it sounds like, you know, you're trying to pack a whole lifetime of [00:05:00] history into like two sentences. You know, my business is, it's, we're second generation family business. we make, history is making butter with designs on it. my, my father. Said, you know, embossed butter is what our company did.
So historically we did any big branded hotel that you can think of from, say 20 years ago or 30 years ago, we probably did their logos. Hyatt, Sheridan, Weston, Ritz Carlton, Wyndham, we, lots of 'em, but you know, they were all, they all ran their own restaurants in those days. They ran their own food and beverage and catering.
And so those were sort of our big customers around the country, when I took the, when I took the business over. So I started working for 'em when I was 12, and he told me there was no more summers at the lake for me and time to go to work.and I talk a little bit about it in my book, the Source, but he got all of his, the supervisors around the, his desk and [00:06:00] he introduced me as his son and he said, now if he does anything wrong, just fire him.
Don't come talk to me. Just fire him.
Mike Goldman: I love it.
Mark Peters: my dad just didn't bluff, right? So I'm this impressional 12-year-old kid, and you know, I took him at his word, so. I learned early on to make a lot of friends. I, you know, I got to know the people that, that I was working withand really this is, it's kind of interesting because people say when they read the source and some of the themes that are in the book, it's like where, you know, growing up the way you grew up, how did you end up here and. You know, I mean, I can point to some of my Christian values and you know, some of those things, but I really think it was the lived experience that started when I was 12 with the people in the plant and really having this need to get to know the people I was working with to protect my own job. So somewhat, you know, self. [00:07:00] Whatever, whatever the word I'm looking for is.
Mike Goldman: Self-preservation.
Mark Peters: Self preservation and,and, but what I, you know, I learned that the people that were working in our family businessvery different lives that than I lived. I mean, they were concerned about paycheck to paycheck. They were concerned about buying groceries.
They were concerned about their kids off the street. They were concerned about. Buying shoes about whether they could repair their car or not, or, you know, I mean, things that never, ever entered my field of thought as a kid or a young adult.so I think that, you know, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, those years where I was in the plant working and really getting to know the people,that worked for us. And then seeing how my dad treated them, was really the genesis for a lot of the thought process that went into the book, the source in particular, and founding of the [00:08:00] source. So I.
Mike Goldman: And what is that? When you said the way your dad treated them, was it a good example or a bad example?
Mark Peters: sorry, I, that's a great question. I sort of thought that, I implied it was a bad example, but,
Mike Goldman: That's what I thought I wanted to make, be real clear.
Mark Peters: so it like to be more specific, we didn't have health insurance. No. 401k. I mean, it was like. This is how much I pay you an hour and this is what I expect you to do. And that's the beginning and the end of the work contract, you know, and,he legitimately treated most of the people that came to work for us, like a different class of citizen.and again, I don't, you know, my, my religious upbringing. Would have suggested that everybody was created in God's image. So everybody requires a certain level of dignity. And I really struggled with the difference between, you know, my dad at home, [00:09:00] my dad at church, and my dad at work. And my dad at work was a very different,it was a very, it was acted out very differently and it didn't make any sense to me and that, and I got to meet who were just really amazing individuals and working really hard for their family and committed to their family and, but they were not treated like that in our workplace.
Mike Goldman: And what do you believe? So, so you grow up in the business and you see that as an example of, that's not the way I want to be. and it shapes some beliefs that you have. Tell me more about like, what do you believe? There are a lot of leaders who are very good people and treat their people okay.
Mark Peters: Yeah.
Mike Goldman: their focus is very much profitability of the business. And of course, if you don't focus on profitability, you don't have a business, so you've gotta focus there. But,I know you have some very strong beliefs about the responsibility a company has to their people.
Mark Peters: [00:10:00] Yeah.
Mike Goldman: and I'd love to hear more about how you think about that.
Mark Peters: Yeah. It's, you know what I, and I do think lots of leaders have different approaches and that's fine. I just am,I wanna try to think of the most succinct way to say this. I,I think that we have, I, so I'll just say,I, instead of saying we or us as entrepreneurs or anything like that, and hopefully I can inspire some other people to think in a similar way. We have, I have this enterprise where come to work. And spend 40 plus hours a week under my influence. And when I say that it, it's the way they're treated and how we show up as an employer, how I show up as an employer, andif that work environment is toxic or.demeaning or not honoring, not interested in what makes somebody successful. Those people go home [00:11:00] and workplace experience affects the way they act at home. Now, if they're, most of our employees are 40 hours plus. I mean, we're full, we're a full-time employer up from the top all the way down to the plant floor. So people that are coming into my house. Are spending more time with me than they are with in any other sector of their life. So I can either choose to be intentional about that influence or I can choose to not be intentional about it. But not being intentional about it is a choice. And so I have, ever since my father passed away, worked very hard to try to design a workplace. Where people who are coming in to, to put food in boxes can have the best possible work experience from, their team, the way they're treated, development [00:12:00] opportunities, you know, simple things like please and thank you keeping the environment clean so that they've got great space to, to be in. I all sorts of other sorts of, you know, respect and interest, kinds of things. And that's really, what led me to start the source was I could not provide, there's so many people in my workforce that had complexities in their lives that I couldn't help them with, and I really wanted to do something more.
Around helping people address again, we talked about some of 'em a little bit earlier, like whether it's transportation or housing or childcare or somebody in their family has medical issues they don't know how to deal with.just, you know, we're not a social agency. you said earlier, we have to be profitable.
We can't just, you know, pay everybody's bills for 'em. They've gotta set a wage rate. We've gotta run a profitable [00:13:00] business.But at the same point in my life that I'm thinking about these things, I'm also serving on a couple of inner city nonprofit boards, and I'm realizing that a lot of these organizations, and I would suspect a lot of your listeners do the same thing.
This is not an uncommon dynamic in my experience of business leaders who also serve in a nonprofit world, something that they're passionate about. But what I got really interested in was. That those organizations that I served on the board of were great at telling their stories to their donors and their supporters.
They were far less effective at getting their clients. And then the next step of that thinking was that those clients work for me. And then I'm like, well, how am I sharing these services out to the people that work for me? And that was the skeleton structure of what became the source.
The source became this conduit for employees of the member [00:14:00] companies, to find resources that would help them in almost any situation with the goal of staying at work, you know, so that none of those things in their lives would create an event. that would take them out of their employment.so, so, you know, I was so focused on trying to change that work experience for people that I actually went out and got businesses to help me build something, to do this.
and it, you know, we've now, we've got almost 22 years of data on the source and 28 member companies. it's pretty amazing what it's turned into. Anyway, I'm kind of going in all different
Mike Goldman: No. No,and I'm not stopping you because that's the heart of, I think what's so different and what's so important of what. The reason I was so interested in having you on the show is that we're not just talking about. You know, how, what kind [00:15:00] of culture we should be creating in our business and how you retain employees and all those things are important.
And both of us have written books on those things, so, so super important by our books. Absolutely. but you went well beyond and said. Wait a minute, there may be a new model here because as a, you know, we're not running and you're, you've got a very successful business, but it's not Google or Meta or Apple where it's a company big enough where if that's what you want to offer up and make available to your employees, you've got a company that's a, you know, a $50 billion, a hundred billion dollar company.
You, you could build those things if you want. You may or may not do it, but you can. but what you've done is said, wait a minute. There's a whole bunch of mid-market companies out there, small companies out there that just don't have the money or the time or the expertise or the resources to do these [00:16:00] things, and therefore, I'm gonna figure out a different way to get it done.
Mark Peters: Yeah. Yeah. that's really what it was. And here's what so. Here's what's interesting to me, and I think one of the themes in, in, in the Source and also in the retention trap is, you know, as employers, as entrepreneurs, we're really good at problem solving. In fact, I would argue that's our superpower for the world.
that's how you start a business. you have a, either a better way or a different way, or you've got a, you know, a product, a service, a, formula, something that's different, better, creates a better outcome for your customers. And then you're successful at it. You've gotta hire people.
What's interesting to me is we don't tend to apply our problem solving skills internally, especially around our people [00:17:00] nearly as well as we do externally, especially around our customers, right? And so, many times through the history of building the source, we talk to employers andask them like, how many people do you think in your organization are getting some sort of government assistance? Now, the source can take the roster of social security numbers and run it through whatever database they run it through, and they can tell you what percentage of your workforce is getting like Department of Health and Human Services, benefits. It is shocking to me how many people have no clue as to the number or percentage of their workforce that may be government benefits on top of their wages. And so I, I think that one of my hopes with the book, the source is to get other [00:18:00] leaders to. Be a little bit more curious about the composition of their workforce, and then get a little bit more curious about how they can positively impact that. You know, we've had people say about the source that it's almost more important to them than their health insurance benefits, because what the source does is it's available at exactly the moment of need. You know, not that health insurance isn't, but.you know, health insurance can be complex and a lot of people are generally pretty healthy.
They don't, they may go a whole year and not need it. Um, but if they're looking at getting evicted, that's a pretty emergency need for their family they need to have that solved quickly and their landlord ain't helping 'em out, know, so, at the moment that need occurs. That the perceived value of that benefit for the employees is [00:19:00] outweighed significantly. you know, that drives a stickiness with us as a, as an employer.
Mike Goldman: Yeah. that's what, you know, what's so interesting about this and you said this earlier, so I'm gonna come back to it, is, you know, you could look at this as a very. You know, altruistic, you know, we need to treat people in, you know, the right way. and I like what you said earlier, you know about when you invite people into your house.
Mark Peters: Yeah.
Mike Goldman: You didn't say business, you said house. And that's a very different feeling and a very different level of ownership and caring about people outside the work. It's all very, you know, it's all wonderful. And at the same time, the other thing you said was it helps make sure people don't have issues that take them away from work.
So there's an ROI there as well where this is not just be being a good guy, this is smart business.
Mark Peters: Well, and you know what, Mike, the great thing about the source, the organization is that we now have 22 years of [00:20:00] data, and you mentioned ROI, but the average. Over all of those 22 years, the average ROI to employers is just over 200%. And we measure that based on a, you know, it's hard to measure something that doesn't happen.
So if the source has three interactions with an individual, in a year, it's considered a job safe. And that the history of that agreement is. That when the original employers that came together, we all had a three times in year out policy around attendance. So, and then we just, we assigned a value to the of having to replace somebody.
And at the, I don't know what the number they used now, but when we started it was like $3,200. I can tell you for my organization, the cost of one turnover event now in an entry level position is about $8,500.[00:21:00] and that's if somebody leaves us in the first 90 days of employment. And you know, that's another one of those problems I think that most employers see those turnover calculators and they legitimately don't believe the numbers. they're so big that we don't believe 'em.but when you start solving for that stuff, you. You see things like safety gets better, defects go down. People are problems, problem solving, all the small issues that come up in a business much faster and in alignment. care about the work environment.
It's cleaner. you know, you have less sort of behavioral incidences in your facilities. and we in our business have tracked all of that. we can see that correlation.so anyway, there's a, I believe that there's a definite return and our cost to our business to the source now is roughly 50 grand a year.
So I say you're getting like this [00:22:00] supercharged HR person for a fraction of what it would cost you today.
Mike Goldman: You, you've given some examples, but tell me a little bit more of the types of services that are now made available to your team members. give us a few more examples of what those are so people could better picture what something like the source could do.
Mark Peters: Yeah, so, so in particular, you know, the source again, is a conduit. We didn't build an organization to recreate resources that are available in the community. We basically went out, the idea was to utilize services that exist in the community. So,this past year, housing was the biggest issue, and I think that's probably true across the country. housing's expensive. rental housing is expensive.difficult to get. you know, the other thing that plays into that is people's credit score. So if you have a bad credit score, it's really hard to [00:23:00] get a place to live. And so we, the source does offer some financial, financial assistance and some financial training.
they actually have a. Credit union that, that comes along and offers those, offers, those services. They also have like a small dollar loan program. And again, I would suspect that many of the people that are listening to this have done this. They'll give employees loans, they'll take it outta their paycheck, you know, that's great, but there's always a risk. so we've outsourced all of that to the source. they do all of that and they can get information from individuals that you just can't get as a. an employer, to really help hold people accountable for paying them back and giving them the skills to manage, you know, manage their budget. food scarcity has actually been a big one, so, you know, helping people with, and so you say, okay, food scarcity. That means there's not a grocery store that's got great food nearby where somebody lives. [00:24:00] Yep, that's true. more to that though. There's the food that's available in some of our inner city locations is, is not great from a nutritional perspective.
So part of it is also teaching people about nutrition. Like, like how does eating certain foods affect you? Right?
So the source offers some of that nutritional counseling as well, um, along with.offering assistance in, in getting people a full, you know, making food, more accessible,to their families.
Transportation I mean, those are, right now, those are the top three.
transportation issues. You got the same issues with cars today. I mean, the,the interest rates have driven loan rates up on cars, so transportation even to get an inexpensive car.you know, some of our employees would be looking at a 20 to 25% interest rate, you know, and a lot of people that are listening to this are gonna cringe.
Like, who would ever pay [00:25:00] 25% for a car loan? Well, if that's the only way you're gonna get to work, you may not have another option, but you're not getting a great car, which means pretty soon you're gonna have a car repair. Right. Pretty soon that car's not gonna run to get you to work and then you've got a different problem. So again, the source actually has developed some relationships with. You know, some auto dealers, other people in the, in people that do car repairs and restoration. and also with the bank relationships, we'll work through some of those things to help make transportation affordable. They also will do things that, that help with like, you know, getting people to the right bus lines.
The other thing that the source can do is communicate back to the company. So, so like, Hey, we're working through an issue with this employee. If you guys could give 'em a little grace, we think we can fix it in 30 days. And you know, again, we're probably far more likely to. [00:26:00] To trust that the source has done some homework.
And they're like, look, we got this and we're gonna get this person back to stability. Then somebody who's gonna come in and they're not gonna tell you what the root cause problem is in their life and they're, and it's gonna sound like a bunch of excuses, and then you're probably gonna end up, they're probably gonna end up losing their job for attendance. Um, and so they've been able to shift that dynamic. so that. You know, the HR team will know, Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna give this person a little bit of grace while the source works through it. and we should be good on the other side. And when it, believe me, when an employer does that for an individual, especially at that, you know, more entry level groupof folks, they've never been treated like that. Talk about being treated differently than any employer has ever treated them. they're not, we will get [00:27:00] people to say, okay, maybe it's time to go look for another job, but I wanna go to work for another source company. they don't wanna, they don't wanna give up that sort of what's becomes a trusted and knowledgeable relationship in their lives.
Mike Goldman: Is this, is the source right now, is it just.
In Grand Rapids in that area, or is it expanded beyond that?
Mark Peters: Yeah, well, that's a great question. So the original source is West Michigan. Actually, they're in the process of expanding to the east side of the state, with a partnership with Corwell Health, which is just fantastic. the of the source are all across the country. Like I'm on the board of an organization called Work Life Partnership, they do, a.they have what we, so the people that go out and help actually interact with our employees are called resource navigators. So, so the work life partnership is, has got a resource navigator model that's not quite [00:28:00] as high touch. Some of it's remote, you know, some of it's remotely or you know, over, over Zoom. and they've. operated in over 35 states. But then there's other, like, I helped, I helped, the Fresno area set up, what they call it, Heartland Compass. there's another source adaptation out in Washington. There's a couple out in the East Coast. So there's, there's a growing number of these adaptations around the country, which is, it's fantastic to see.
It's fantastic to see people. to understand that. And I, and Mike, I actually really believe that,I know enough entrepreneurs and so do you, and that, like you said, they're good people. If they knew there was a way to help the people that work for them solve some of these problems, they'd be the first people to sign up for it. I mean, we both know that's true. The problem is. The problems are so deep and complex that, and it's not [00:29:00] our core competency. It's like I don't have the bandwidth to do that. now we've got history, we've got data, we've got models across the country where interested employer doesn't have to, don't have to recreate this, you know, it's, we've got a template that can be used. If they're in a community that, that doesn't have access to a source like, or one of the adaptations, which I think, you know, I hope this just keeps growing and keeps gaining momentum.
And the other thing that I like about it, I have this can, do you mind if we take a little side trip, into capitalism theory for a moment?
Mike Goldman: Sure love side trips.
Mark Peters: you know, we get, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, media talk about, you know, is capitalism dead? and [00:30:00] you know, there's a lot of maybe unknown and turmoil and lots of, division and. You know, over 50% of America works for small and mid-market companies, and these are, I believe, probably people that are listening to your show.
People that, that I get to go speak to, they show up every day. They run their businesses. They care about their people. What I love about this model is as employers, we get some value from people that at work and are engaged in what we do. And so. not looking for government funding to run that nonprofit.
We're funding that nonprofit and we're getting some value from the work that they do, which means that is a sustainable nonprofit because they're returning measurable value to the community.and I think that's a really great aspect of capitalism. Yes, we have to be profitable,we do get [00:31:00] to build. Our equations right within our organizations, and we get to decide what we spend some of our money on. And so I think that this model really does help build. Strength and stability into our communities through doing what we do, and that's being great employers. I just, um, so I think it's a capitalist model.
I, I really do. It doesn't require government funding. It doesn't require picking a political side of the aisle to keep it going. it doesn't require religious affiliation. It requires some hard work and it requires a little bit of understanding about the people that to work for you.
Mike Goldman: For a leader that loves this idea, and I hope everybody loves this idea for, I do, for a leader that loves this idea and says, Hey, I wanna do something like this, or get involved in something like this. How do they, how do, what's the best way to [00:32:00] find out if some similar model exists in their area?
And if it doesn't, what's the best way for maybe them to start that up in their local area?
Mark Peters: Yeah. So I mean, I think we're, you know, I think we've, we're sharing like my LinkedIn connection and whatnot, I, my office will gladly run that down. I mean, you can go online and look up the, you know, grsource.org.I don't think we provided that contact, but we can,to.
Mike Goldman: And we'll put, and we'll put that, we'll put that in the show notes so everybody's got that.
Mark Peters: you know, to see what it's about.
But I would say if people wanna contact me through LinkedIn, that's probably the easiest. And I can, I, we'll find out. And if somebody's interested in being a champion, I'd love to talk to 'em. I, and again, because we've got, there's experts around the country now that know how to do this, so. We are not
Mike Goldman: Love.
Mark Peters: from scratch.[00:33:00]
Mike Goldman: Love it. Love it. And thanks so much for offering that.
So now I wanna turn to, to, to your new book coming out in June, or depending on when you're listening to this, it came out in June of 2025. and Mark and I both at this point again, depending on when you're listening, we both have books we're working on that are launching in the not too distant future, but So your new book is called The Retention Trap.
Tell me a little bit about that book and why you decided to write it.
Mark Peters: Yeah. This is gonna sound a little, you know, we just talked about these things that you can do as an employer to help retain your employees. And now I'm gonna tell you to not focus on retaining your employees.but, you know, I don't think it's that much different. and Mike, I think we were chatting pre-show and I said, I told my writer the reason she said, why do you wanna write this book? And she was talking about the source. And I said, so I can write my second book? She goes, that's a really bad idea. Nobody does that. like, well, I think what I wanna communicate is I've been doing this workforce development and [00:34:00] talent investment for over 20 years, you know, and I know that it works.
But the retention trap, I've gotten to the point, Mike, where I believe we spend far too much time focusing on how to keep employees.and it's led us to some really not great. in fact, I would, I do argue in the book some places that are, that don't serve us andif we would do a better job at focusing on investing in the people that work for us and less concerned about whether they stay or not. Understanding that don't show up to work for us and then we get to keep 'em forever. That's not how it works. And you know, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who's a regional president of a bank, he says, wait a [00:35:00] minute. He said, you're, he says, where am I gonna find the extra money in my budget to make these investments in education and talent and whatnot?and I said, well, you know, he said, I'm gonna do that and then they're gonna leave. I'm like, look, they're leaving anyway. And the fact that people are leaving all of our companies for various different jobs is a cost to us. There's turbulence when that happens. a lot of times we don't have a lot of notice, which means, you know, we're hiring contractors, we're asking people to fill in. we don't tend to quantify those costs very well. And, again, going back to the problem solving skills, we also don't tend to try to apply our problem solving skills to this problem. What I believe that if we. Spend more of our money and our time, first of all, understanding what people want to [00:36:00] learn and then investing in them, learning that.I believe we get stronger, more robust organizations. I also. Believe and have some history. I have, I don't have a, I don't have a, I don't have a working model yet, Mike, but I'm gonna get there in the next 18 months, that people will help you fill their position you've had a conversation about being ready to leave your organization.
Now I go as far in the book as to suggest. We should build the network of employers that share similar cultures for our people to go work for.
Mike Goldman: Wow.
Mark Peters: and one of my personal goals is to get to a point where I am a part of my HR team's bonus is based on how many people they've promoted to other [00:37:00] companies in better jobs. That, that's how strongly I believe in how this works. And each one of us is part of a larger talent system. It's understanding where we are in that system and that people are gonna move, people are gonna come to workforce and they're gonna leave. They're gonna try to go find a better job. So instead of being resistant to that, how can we embrace that? How can we be this great place for people to work and learn they're on their talent journey? Because, 'cause we're still a place to work while they're on their talent journey. Like, that's not gonna change. So why don't we embrace the fact that they're on their talent journey and help them get to the best possible spot they can be. And yes, they're gonna leave. Again, we talk, we started out by talking about trust and [00:38:00] communicating openly and honestly to promote effective teamwork.this is a reality. None of us want to, none of us wanna say that. We wanna say, well, we can keep people longer, we'll offer 'em more money, we'll offer 'em better benefits.
We'll offer 'em a different work schedule. Do you really wanna like keep paying somebody more to keep them if they don't wanna be there? Why do we do that? We do it 'cause we don't wanna go through the work of hiring somebody else. But if we, if we can, if with, and again, this becomes this whole idea of intention.
If we shift our intention just a little bit around our talent and we embrace this flow, and we make it okay to have conversations about leaving an organization.to do something better or more interesting, however that other person sees that it changes a awful lot of dynamics within our organization.
Mike Goldman: You probably become like you, you just think about the negative, well, now I got these great [00:39:00] people who are leaving. But I would think if that's the, if that's the environment you are creating, you become a talent magnet.
Mark Peters: Sure. Yeah. and you know what the reality is, you also get people who. Continue to get learning and don't leave. 'cause they love it. They wanna be part of that environment. Right.
Mike Goldman: Yeah, and I forget this was either, it may have been Steve Jobs said this. I don't remember who said it, but, What was the quote? It was, somebody asked the question, what if you do, what if you spend all that money and all that time training people and then they leave, right? And he said, well, what if you don't?
And they stay.
Mark Peters: So you know what? There was a comic and I think it was in the Times, I have tried to find the source of that because you're absolutely right. It was a, and the comic strip was a CEO talking to A CFO. And the CFO says, well, what if we spend all that money on training and education? And they leave, and the CEO looks at him and says, well, what if we [00:40:00] don't?
And they stay,but I think the reality is it's, how we look at it. It what if we spend its money on 'em and they leave. But, and here's the challenge that I would give people. I really believe based on, so I'll say two more things about the book. I do a little bit of a deep dive into what some of the big systems are doing around talent and I talk about the US Chamber of Commerce Foundation and their, Talent pipeline management curriculum, which is very robust, but it's being used across some big systems, and they're anticipating, they're looking at like 15 year time horizon for talent in like healthcare and automotive. And there's some of these, trends that are going on in our country right now as small and mid-market companies, we don't have any visibility to.
they're going to affect us as the demographics of our population change, our ability to hire [00:41:00] people, just from a demographic number standpoint is going to get more challenged than what we're experiencing today. So the question
Mike Goldman: is that because Mark,the population is getting older?
Mark Peters: I mean, I think you've got the population shifts, you've got,and we've got a lot of people who are gonna have a hard time making the skills jump. I mean, you know, I think, you know, AI's coming on so fast and all of the skills you need to do jobs that were. You know, pretty manual and relatively unskilled just a few years ago are gonna require a different level of skillset.so, you know, we're gonna, I think we're just gonna have a more and more difficult time, filling some of those positions. but some of what's being anticipated and worked on a large system basis. is pretty interesting and it's actually available to small and mid-market companies. It's not like it's unavailable to us. we don't know [00:42:00] about it. And, but I think the advantage that we have as you know, smaller, mid-market companies is that all of that stuff is very. what I call enterprise centric. So it's all about protecting the organization and I think what we bring to the table is we can also be people centric. if we can be people centric and enterprise centric, I think that's a great winning strategy.
Mike Goldman: and I think that by going out and learning about some of these things that are already out there that we can put to work in terms of. Enterprise centric talent planning strategies and at doing very personalized talent investment and really truly being interested in helping people be successful and grow. now we don't have to necessarily, you know, if we have a technical position and I have a number of technical positions that are one [00:43:00] person, I don't have a whole department of technical positions, so I lose. One of those technical people, it's a big deal. But if I know they're gonna go and they can help me fill the role, and I'm planning for that transition, it's far less difficult for me to have that happen and have that event happen in my organization.But that's important. And I think what you just said is important is that if you've got that environment where people understand when it's time for them to move up or on, you're actually gonna help them do that. And it's not gonna be a scary situation. what winds up happening is people are more,they're more transparent about it and therefore.
You've got more time to say, okay, if that's what you are planning to do, I could help you do that. But at the same time, you know, I need you to help me bring this other person up to speed in what you do. It just seems like you will have much [00:44:00] smoother, transitions that way.
Mark Peters: yeah. I mean, that would be the goal, right? and I, but I also, I also go as far in the book as to say. You know, we don't like, we don't offer health insurance. It's like, I'll say, Hey Mike, if you wanna come to work for me, I'll give you health insurance, but you've gotta commit to stay working for me for three years.
You'd be like, what? Same with 401k. I think education is gonna move into that. It's gonna be the green's fees. People are gonna ask, well, what's your, you know, what's your education benefit? And if you don't have one, if you don't, if you don't have a strategy around investing in their growth. They're not, they're gonna choose somebody a different place to work. We're not there yet. Which I, which is why I think as small to mid-market companies, we've got a real opportunity window right now. but we're gonna get there. I, five years, I don't know what it is, but it's gonna happen.
Mike Goldman: Yeah, love this. and I can't wait to share the new book, the Retention Trap sounds like a book I'm gonna wanna share with all my [00:45:00] clients. So, so you've got a few, you've got a few baked in sales there. So, that'll get you to bestseller status, but love this stuff.
you mentioned it earlier, but I wanna do it again as we wrap up, if people wanna find out more about, about you.
I know you know, you got the book coming out, you do some speaking, but give us a little kind of list if people wanna find out more about you or about the source and how to find that. Tell us again what's the best way for them to find you and find that information?
Mark Peters: Yeah, so we have a website. it's,I- leadership.com.that's got a lot of information on it. Mark Peters Butterball Farms on LinkedIn. Those are probably the two easiest ways to get in touch with me, directly. Um, the, if someone's interested about the source, the West Michigan version of the source, it's,gr do org https://www.grsource.org/. I should have had that in front of me.
Mike Goldman: That's all right. we'll make sure, we'll make sure to kind of research that and [00:46:00] put that in the show notes. So, so if it was wrong, look in the show notes and we'll make sure it's right.
Mark Peters: right. Otherwise, just Google the source. Grand Rapids. I guarantee you it'll come up.
Mike Goldman: Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, I always say if you want a great company, you need a great leadership team. Mark, thanks for helping us get there today. This stuff was amazing.
Mark Peters: helping me to get to the leadership team I got today, so I kind of owe that directly to you, so I appreciate it.
Mike Goldman: I said earlier, the invoice is coming. Thanks, mark.
Mark Peters: thanks Mike.