Overcoming Imposter Syndrome with Kris Kelso
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“Your confidence doesn't come from what you know and what you've done. Your confidence comes from your ability to learn and your ability to figure things out.”
— Kris Kelso
Overcoming The Imposter
Imposter syndrome is the feeling that one is not as competent as others perceive them to be and that they will eventually be exposed as a fraud.
People with imposter syndrome tend to overvalue other people's success and undervalue or doubt their own success.
It is common for people with imposter syndrome to believe that their success is due to luck or outside help rather than their own abilities.
Imposter syndrome is experienced by a large portion of the population, especially high achievers.
Understanding imposter syndrome can provide relief and help people realize that they are not alone.
Why Do Most High Achievers Experience Imposter Syndrome
Entrepreneurs, leaders, and high achievers experience imposter syndrome due to three main reasons:
Firstly, they are constantly pushing boundaries and stepping into new and unknown territory, making them more susceptible to feeling like they are in over their heads.
Secondly, they are often put on a pedestal and expected to have all the answers, despite figuring things out as they go along.
Lastly, they are frequently in sales mode, constantly selling themselves and their ideas, which can make them feel like they are presenting a polished version of themselves that does not fully reflect reality.
The combination of these three factors creates a recipe for self-doubt and imposter syndrome.
The Impact Of Imposter Syndrome On An Individual
Focusing on managing one's image and worrying about what others think creates stress and anxiety.
Energy spent on managing one's image takes away from productive work.
Constantly hedging and guarding oneself can make one more risk-averse.
Being risk-averse can prevent sharing ideas or trying new things, which hinders learning and experimentation.
Being afraid of being exposed as a fraud can cause individuals to play it safe and manage their image rather than experimenting their way to success.
The Impact It Has On Your Team
Imposter syndrome can cause a leader to try to demonstrate confidence they don't have
This creates a "fixed mindset" where the leader tries to project expertise and flawlessness
Unwillingness to admit flaws or weaknesses can indicate insecurity or dishonesty
Pretending to be flawless and knowledgeable as a leader erodes the trust of your team and the effectiveness of your team.
Team effectiveness is built on trust and the health of those relationships.
People respect leaders who are vulnerable and authentic more than those who pretend to have it all together.
Authentic leaders build trust, create team health and open dialogue, and set the stage for a culture of admitting weaknesses and asking for help.
It enables the team to drop their walls and get vulnerable and ask for help rather than covering up for their shortcomings.
How To Overcome Imposter Syndrome & Reframe Failure As Learning
Imposter syndrome makes people afraid of failure and public exposure of weaknesses.
Failure is not the opposite of success; it's part of the process of success and a great teacher.
Reframe failure as learning to create a culture where people are willing to take risks.
Start drawing confidence from the ability to figure things out instead of what you know.
Confidence should not come from what you know and have done, but from your ability to learn and figure things out.
As a leader, projecting confidence based on experience and knowledge limits growth and potential.
Building confidence based on the ability to learn and experiment removes boundaries and frees individuals and organizations to experiment their way to success.
What's The First Step?
The first step to overcome imposter syndrome is to tell someone about your struggle.
Vulnerability is the cure for imposter syndrome, even though imposter syndrome is the fear of vulnerability.
When you pretend and project confidence, even compliments don't feel genuine
Being vulnerable and admitting your struggles and areas of growth makes you more authentic.
People respect leaders who are vulnerable and authentic more than those who project confidence
Vulnerability Can Boost Your Confidence & Vulnerability Is A Good Thing
Being vulnerable is not an easy step, but it is the key to overcoming imposter syndrome.
Imposter syndrome is the fear of vulnerability, but vulnerability is the antidote to imposter syndrome.
When you are vulnerable and authentic, people will admire and respect you more.
Being vulnerable can boost your confidence and make you more real, and the benefits far outweigh the risks.
Other people will be more likely to open up and support you when you are vulnerable and honest.
Vulnerability is one of the keys to building a great culture within an organization.
Statistically 70 to 80% of the population experiences imposter syndrome at some point in their career.
Imposter syndrome makes you feel like you're the only one struggling with it.
Knowing that you're not the only one, makes it easier to have a conversation about it.
Take The Mask Off
The solution to imposter syndrome is simple: take the mask off.
People are not as ugly or flawed as they think they are.
Taking off the mask can help people realize they are beautiful or that others are just as flawed.
Thanks for listening!
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Mike: Kris Kelso is a keynote speaker, an author, a two-time entrepreneur, a professional certified coach, and a mentor to leaders around the world. He's a faculty instructor at the Professional Christian Coaching Institute, an advisor and instructor at the Nashville Entrepreneur Center and is a contributing writer for Fast Company Magazine, Yahoo Finance, and the Nashville Business Journal, he's the author of Overcoming The Imposter, Silence The Inner Critic and Lead With Confidence. That's what we're gonna focus on today, but he also told me has an unusually specific willpower having not eaten a single donut in the past 17 years. So, Kris, welcome. But I gotta ask what, what's with the donuts, man?
Kris: *Laughter* Thanks, Mike. It's great to be here. Yeah. The donut thing is kind of funny. Years ago, I wanted to be healthier, but I hate dieting. I hate trying to, anything around, you know, counting calories or being on a really strict diet just is too much effort and too annoying for me, too restrictive.
But I just decided that if I could cut out one really unhealthy thing, like just pick one thing and go cold turkey. Then I would be just a little bit healthier. And at the time I was working at this business that was right next to, or just down the road from a Krispy Kreme donuts. And so there were donuts there all the time.
And so I just thought, I'm gonna see how long I can go without eating a donut. You know, it was just a like, I'm just gonna not eat this. I still eat cake, cookies, pie, whatever, but no donuts. And after a year I thought, well, that wasn't all that hard. Let's see if I can go another year. And, then eventually, you know, 5, 6, 10, now 17 years, somebody offers me a donut. I'm like, I'm not gonna break this streak for one donut. That's just not worth it. So yeah, 17 years since I've eaten a donut and.
Mike: So you had had the choice. I hope you don't mind me sharing this. You had the choice of stopping the heroin or the donuts and you said no. You know the donuts.
Kris: Exactly I wanted it to be achievable. You know, I need, I had to be to be realistic.
Mike: I didn't, I thought maybe like you had a tragic donut accident as a child, but now I get it. No, that's good. That's good. You're better, man.
Kris: Nothing quite that fun of a story.
Mike: Better than I, so off donuts onto, imposter syndrome, so what drove you to write Overcoming the Imposter?
Kris: Hmm. So for anybody who's not familiar, which it seems these days that just about everybody has heard of imposter syndrome at least, but I'll define it really quickly, it's a feeling that maybe I'm not what everyone thinks that I am that, that I'm just making it up as I go and I'm worried or afraid that people are gonna figure that out and they're gonna realize that I don't really know what I'm doing.
And what happens is when you have imposter syndrome, you tend to overvalue other people's success. And undervalue or even doubt the reality of your own success. And despite the evidence that you're successful, you feel like, well, it's mostly been
luck or just good timing or relationships or, you know, I've had a lot of help along the way, which reality check, we've all had a lot of help along the way and we've all had elements of luck in our success stories and those kind of things.
So, Imposter syndrome was something that, that years ago didn't know anything about it, hadn't heard of it, but I was definitely experiencing it. I started a business, in my early thirties with no business training whatsoever. I don't even have a
college degree, never went to college. And so I literally went to a bookstore and bought a stack of books covering everything that I thought I needed to know to run a small business, and just started reading and figured I'll just figure it out. And whatever I needed to know, whatever I thought I needed to
learn, I just figured out a way to learn it. But I always had this persistent fear that there was some big idea, some key concept that I was missing and it was gonna be my undoing that one day someone would figure out that I, you know, I didn't know business school 101. And so that was gonna disqualify me from being an entrepreneur. And it wasn't until years later.
That someone told me about imposter syndrome and explained what it was, and just hearing about it and understanding that a lots of people experience it. Some studies say 70 to 80% of the population. B. It's more prevalent among high achievers. So if you experience imposter syndrome, it's actually a sign that you're pushing the boundaries, that you're driven, that you're trying new things.
And just realizing that it was a real thing and I wasn't alone in that was a huge relief and a weight off my shoulders. But that wasn't enough. I really started to dig in and study this topic cause I wanted to understand it. I wanted to, I'm kind of a psychology nut a little bit. You know, I don't have a degree in that, but I love to study psychology and human behavior.
And so I started digging into imposter syndrome for me. To understand it. But then as I began to talk to some of my clients and other entrepreneurs that I knew, I started getting this feedback and response that it was a really prevalent challenge and that a lot of people were wrestling with it and that lot, not a lot of people understood it.
And so I'm a person, Mike, that reads a lot of books, especially business books and leadership books, and I'm constantly recommending books to my friends and clients and colleagues. And I looked and couldn't really find a great book on imposter syndrome that spoke to my tribe, to entrepreneurs and really driven, innovative people, and there just wasn't one that I felt like met that need.
And so eventually it became a compulsion like this book needed to exist and it didn't. So it became my responsibility to write it.
Mike: Yeah. I love that we write what we need to, what we need to read.
Kris: Absolutely.
Mike: It's not out there. We write it and it's so interesting that, you know, could remember.
Man, it was probably, I'm 58, it was probably 30 years ago or so when I was in management consulting. And I didn't know what the name of this thing was, but I just knew any minute. And by the way, I got my college but I never got an MBA. And I had these folks around that all had their MBAs.
Kris: Yes.
Mike: And I'm in management consulting and I'm sitting at my computer typing away at something. I had this fear that any minute someone was gonna tap me on the back and go wait a minute. We just figured out you don't know anything. Yeah. Get outta here. And, I had felt that actually for years and when I had finally kind of got up the guts to tell somebody else, that's how I was feeling.
Cause we kind of, I say that we laugh, but it's a horrible feeling.
And when I finally got the guts tell somebody else that they went, oh yeah, I've had that for a lot. That's called imposter syndrome. Mm-hmm. And just somebody putting a name on it was like, oh I'm not crazy. I'm not alone. Other people feel this way.
Now you said something interesting. I want to dig a little bit is why is it, do you think that it is kind of leaders and high achievers? That feel this more often? Cause that might sound a little counterintuitive.
Kris: Yeah, so there's three reasons that I think entrepreneurs in particular, but also just leaders in general and high achievers innovators, experience imposter syndrome. One is, that. They are, they're pushing the boundaries. They're trying new things. You know, entrepreneurs by nature are risk takers and leaders have to be willing to step into new situations and to try new things, and so they're in unknown territory.
More often than the average person. They're, you know, entrepreneur or imposter syndrome is the fear that you're in over your head. Well, if you're a leader, you are intentionally getting in over your head on a regular basis, like you're sort of the of that spear cutting into new territory.
The second reason is that they're put on a pedestal. And they are often looked up to admired. People assume that a business owner or a business leader, a CEO or even a
senior manager, they assume that you're in that position because you know more than everyone else because you have the answers that other people don't have.
And they also are just sort of looked up to as the smartest people in the room, the ones that are the most capable. When in reality, they're often figuring it out as they go.
They're in new territory, they're breaking new ground, they're trying and experimenting things. And then the third reason is that they're often in sales mode.
They're, you know, whether you're in sales officially or not, leaders have to be salespeople in the sense that they're selling a vision, they're selling their ideas, they're selling, they're recruiting people to join their team.
They're, if you're an entrepreneur, you might be selling your business in terms of raising money, pitching investors, and so that combination of being in sales mode, means you're constantly telling the best version of your story that you can, even when you know that behind the scenes there are some cracks and flaws
and some issues that you're still working through, but being in sales mode, being in new territory where you don't always fully know what you're doing and being put on a pedestal by others where you feel like the admiration you get
may not be completely warranted, like they see more in you than is really there. That combination of those three things is just this lethal formula for self-doubt and feeling like, oh my goodness, I'm at risk of being exposed here.
Mike: That makes so much sense. And even that in it of itself, before we get to, and we will get to your ideas on how you overcome this, but just the understanding of the reasons why it might happen to you.
That in of itself, I think should make people feel better that, oh, it's because I'm trying new things. So that, that's amazing. And so let me ask this before we get how to to solve it.
I wanna talk about the impact a little and I wanna talk about it at two levels. First is, as an individual, how does this idea of imposter syndrome impact us? Yeah.
But then, because a lot of the folks listening to this show are leaders or part of a leadership team, I wanna understand too, if you as a leader have imposter syndrome that you are not working on to kind of get over that, how does it impact the rest of the company?
How does it impact the people you're leading? But, first, let's talk about as an individual. So how does having imposter syndrome impact an individual?
Kris: So it individually, it's gonna create a lot of stress, anxiety. Right? You're spending energy managing your image and worrying about what people are thinking and how what you do comes across. And that energy is not being used at actually doing productive work at, you know, so it's like you're hedging constantly.
You're guarding yourself, you're protecting, it's also gonna make you more risk averse. You're gonna be gonna be less willing to share an idea that isn't fully thought through or to try something where there's an equal chance of failure as there is of success. But failure is how we learn.
Experimentation is how we get to the right answer eventually. But if you're so afraid of being exposed as a fraud or you know, worried that you're gonna lose people's respect, you're gonna be very risk averse and you're gonna play it safer, and you're gonna spend your time and energy managing your reputation and your image rather than experimenting your way to success.
And so that's how it holds us back individually.
Mike: Now, let me say something before we go to the team and the company.
Kris: Yeah.
Mike: So it sounds to me like if you're spending that time, worried about and managing your reputation, not taking those risks. It's almost a vicious cycle that if you don't deal with that, that problem is not only not gonna get better, it's gonna get worse.
Kris: Yes.
Mike: Cause as you are more worried about managing your reputation, you are probably not showing up out there the way you should.
Kris: Yes.
Mike: And the whole problem is just gonna cycle down pretty quickly.
Kris: That's exactly true. And in fact in the book I've got several stories and there's one that comes to mind of a man who was quickly rising in his industry,
and part of a very large company and he was having great success, but his insecurity, his imposter syndrome became debilitating to the point that he was avoiding meetings.
He was delaying projects. He was, you know, he was not holding himself accountable to deadlines because he was afraid
to take on the work. He was afraid to turn in the work because of how he feared it being wrong or being misperceived, and that became this self-sabotaging behavior that eventually cost him his job.
He got fired because of a lack of confidence, because he was holding back and it was all rooted in this fear that I'm in over my head I don't know what I'm doing, when in fact he was doing a great job and he was very capable.
And you know, as we bridge to the question about the leaders in that specific story, he ended up finding his way to another company in the industry where the cycle began to happen again.
But fortunately this time, he had a great, boss, a CEO, who saw that in him and pulled him aside and said, hang on, you are capable of this and you cannot let yourself doubt start to create this cycle like the leader actually saw and short circuited
that downward spiral and helped him to get out of that cycle of insecurity that leads to poor performance, which breeds more insecurity.
And so he was able to flourish in the right environment, because someone saw that in him and counteracted it.
Mike: Love that because without that leader, that mentor to help him, I would imagine him getting fired from that job. Probably just reinforce. See, I'm not very good.
Kris: Exactly, and this is often what happens is we, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm not good enough, therefore I do low quality work, and then I lose out on opportunities. I have limits and boundaries put on myself, which reinforce the idea that I'm not good enough.
But it often starts in our heads, starts with that self-doubt that plays out in the way we perform.
Mike: And from a leadership standpoint, there's another anglethat just jumped in my head to two, so two angles. One is, as a leader, if you have imposter syndrome, let's talk a little bit about how that impacts your team and your people.
And the the second thing is, as a leader, how can you recognize if someone on your team has imposter syndrome?
Kris: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Mike: Right. So, but let's go with the first thing. So, if you are a a leader and you have imposter syndrome, and you're, the nature of that is you're very much focused on yourself.
Kris: Yep.
Mike: What impact could that be having on your team?
Kris: So, one of the things that happens when you have imposter syndrome, especially in a leadership role, is you try to demonstrate confidence where you don't have it and you try to project, expertise.
So you end up in this, Carol Dweck calls it the fixed mindset where you try to project that you have all the answers. You set yourself up as flawless. You sorta, you know, exude this outward confidence that is rooted in an inward insecurity.
And the problem with that is most people can see through it. So your people will lose trust in you when you pretend like you have it all together and you actually don't, they'll recognize that and they may not confront you.
They may not tell you that you're losing their trust, but over time you will lose their trust and their respect because they know inherently that everybody has flaws, everybody has weaknesses, and when a person is unwilling to admit a flaw or a weakness,
then we know that they not only have flaws and weaknesses, but they're also insecure or dishonest on top of that.
Kris: And so as a leader, when you try to reject or pretend to be perfect, flawless, knowledgeable, have all the answers, all the experience when you're unwilling to admit a weakness or a shortcoming,
you actually erode the trust of your team, which erodes the effectiveness of your team, team effectiveness is built on trust and on the health of those relationships.
So you'll lose the thing you're trying to get when you pretend, when you put on the the mask, when you know, you're trying to get that respect. You're trying to, and you actually push it away, you erode that respect.
On the other hand, what I've seen is people respect leaders who are vulnerable and authentic, so much more than they respect leaders who pretend to have it all together and pretend to have it all figured out.
So when as a leader, you let your guard down and you say, hey guys, I don't have the answer here, but we're gonna try some things and we're gonna see what works and we're gonna figure it out together. I believe in us. I believe in our capability to figure this out, but that doesn't mean I have all the right answers.
We're gonna have to learn this together. Or I have a weakness and a shortcoming in this area. I'm not great at this. So I've hired these people to help and I've brought in the people around me to make up for you know, the areas that I'm not as strong.
When a leader is authentic like that, it actually builds trust. It creates that team health and that open dialogue. And they also. They set the stage and the culture that it's okay to ask for help and admit that you have, a shortcoming or an area where you're you're struggling.
And that enables your team as well to sort of drop those walls and get vulnerable and ask for the help that they need rather than spending a lot of energy trying to cover up for their shortcomings.
Mike: So how do you get there? Right? How do you get from this feeling of, you know, this insecurity that you have.
Kris: Mm-hmm.
Mike: To being more vulnerable. I sense being vulnerable. Is it hard of answer to how you overcome this? How do you flip that switch from I don't think I'm as smart as everybody else thinks I am.
So I don't wanna let people know to, I'm gonna admit I don't know a whole bunch stuff. And that's gonna sound like, how do you make that happen?
Kris: Yeah. There's a series of mindset shifts that you've gotta make and, one of the first is about how you view failure, about what you see as the result and even the purpose and the benefits of failure. So people that struggle with imposter syndrome are really afraid of failure.
They're afraid of a public failure or a failure that is exposed, that, exposes a weakness in them. But failure is not something we should be afraid of, and failure is not the opposite of success. Failure is part of the process of success.
Kris: Failure is a great teacher. We learn more from failures than we do from successes, and so one of the mindset shifts is to reframe failure as learning. So when I take on a new project and it has taken me a while to get to this place,
when I take on a new project, a new effort, when I try something new that I haven't done before, I tell myself, there are only two outcomes. I'm either gonna succeed or I'm gonna learn. One of those two things is gonna happen.
Maybe both, but at least one of those things is gonna happen. And both are a success. Both are a win for me. And so when you reframe failure as learning, and if you can create a culture in your organization that failure is learning, then
people are more willing to take a risk. Now, I don't mean take irresponsible risks, I don't mean just, you know, throw caution to the wind and try anything. But what I mean is be willing to step out even when the certainty of failure is low or I'm sorry, the certainty of success is low and there is that risk that it may not go the way we expect it to, but that's how we learn.
So you start with this reframing of failure as learning and then the other mental shift that you need to make. Once you've reframed failure as learning, then you can start to draw your confidence, not from what you know, but from your ability to figure it out.
Kris: So the second mental shift is that your confidence doesn't come from what you you know and what you've done. Your confidence comes from your ability to learn and your ability to figure things out. So this is again, where when I try something new, I don't think about, have I done this before and do I have enough confidence that I'm gonna be successful?
I think about how many other things have I done before for the first time. How many other times have I tried something and maybe it didn't go exactly the way I planned the first time around, but I eventually figured out how to make it work.
I eventually learned my way through it and got good at it, and that enables me to boldly try something new. Knowing that whether it works the first time or not, I'm in the learning learning process. And so as a leader here again, when you project to your team that our confidence comes from our experience and our knowledge and what we have, well, then you've just put serious boundaries and limits on your confidence because you haven't done it all and you don't know it all.
But when you say, our confidence comes from our ability to learn and experiment and to figure things out, you've just thrown the boundaries off. You've said anything we're willing to go apply the effort to figure out. We can now do. Both as an individual, as a leader, and as a team, as an organization. And that really frees people up to not fear failure, but to see it as part of the process and that learning journey where we experiment our way to success.
Mike: Love it. Love it. So reframing failure is learning and reframing confidence is the ability to, I mean, I love and both those fit together very nicely.
Kris: Yes.
Mike: So, so, if I've got imposter syndrome right now and I know I've gotta make these two mindset shifts, let's get really pragmatic. So, what's the first thing I ought to, and those are gonna allow me to be more vulnerable.
Kris: Mm-hmm.
Mike: Which is instead of that vicious cycle that's going down, or that self-fulfilling prophecy, now what's the opposite of a vicious cycle? A virtuous cycle. There it is a virtuous cycle. A virtuous cycle going up. So, what's the actual first step I ought to take if I'm mired in imposter syndrome?
What do I do? What do I do as soon as I'm done listening to this podcast?
Kris: This is gonna sound hard to do. This is gonna be harsh for someone. They're looking for an easy step, but it's a simple step, but it's not an easy one.
And that step is to tell someone. To simply open up and admit it and have a conversation with someone, preferably someone you trust, but talk to someone about where your struggle is.
And Mike, you've hit on the key word multiple times. You've said vulnerability. And this is the great irony of imposter syndrome, is that imposter syndrome is the fear of vulnerability. It's the fear of being exposed for who and what you really are. And yet, vulnerability is the antidote. Vulnerability is the cure for imposter syndrome.
And here's why. Because when you've got a mask on, when you're pretending, when you're projecting the most confidence and you're trying to appear that you're flawless and that you have a perfect plan and you've got it all together. Even when people compliment you, when they tell you do good work, when they admire you.
You can't accept it. You don't really believe it because you know it's based on a half truth. You know, it's not based on reality about who you are. It's based on just the image that you're putting out there. But when you begin to get vulnerable and you say, I have some struggles. I have some things, I have some areas I am really confident.
And then I have some areas that I'm not, that I'm still learning, that I'm still figuring out. When you are authentic with people and they still admire you and respect you, which by the way, they usually will, cause again we talked about people respect leaders who are vulnerable and authentic a lot more than they respect those leaders that are projecting confidence when they respect and admire you.
Kris: It will feel much more real. You'll be able to accept it because you know it's based on the truth and it'll actually boost your confidence. So being vulnerable can be a confidence booster. Now, it's not without risk. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that if you get vulnerable and honest and you tell somebody, I have a weakness, I have a shortcoming.
There's some areas that I really don't know what I'm I'm doing, I'm not gonna tell you that can't hurt. That that won't backfire in certain circumstances. But what I will tell you is the benefits far outweigh the risks, that 99% of the time being vulnerable is gonna help you more than it hurts you.
And you'll see that what happens is other people begin to say, oh, you know what? I'm glad you said that because I've struggled there too. Or they'll say, you know, that's not my issue, but here's where I struggle and maybe if you help me with mine, I can help you with yours and we can talk and we can support one another.
And you start to realize that the flaws that you have, that you think are the big ugly fatal flaws that you think are the insurmountable weaknesses. That they're really not that big a deal. And that lots of other people have worked their way through that as well, and that really all you needed to do was open up and ask for some help and you'll be able to find it.
Mike: One of the things. Kris, I love about this is, this is something, yes, we're talking about imposter syndrome, but what you are talking about is I think one of the keys to building a great culture within an organization and when I talk about culture with my clients, I talk about the three v's. Values, vision and vulnerability. So I use that word a lot. I hear because I use a lot.
Kris: Yes.
Mike: And there's a great book, after you finish reading, you know, Kris's book and then my book read this, I'm gonna mention it's a great book, a guy named Daniel Coyle called the Culture Code. And he talks about something called the trust loop.
I think he calls it the trust loop. He may even call it the vulnerability loop, but I think it's the trust loop. But it's this whole idea, Kris, you're talking about, of if I trust you and I say, hey, gotta be honest with you, Kris. I'm really no good at this part of what we're doing. I could really use some help.
Kris: Mm-hmm.
Mike: Or I think I may have screwed up, or I need some, whatever it is. If I trust you, you're gonna say, hey, Mike just trusted me. You might come back to me and go, you know what? I've had that same problem and let me tell you what I've done now.
Kris: Yes.
Mike: All that, you are trusting me. And then I hear that and I'm gonna trust you more. And that's just create this beautiful trust loop. And if you can imagine doing that on a team. You're creating this safe space for everybody on your team to share and be vulnerable in a good way. Vulnerable has this negative connotation, but we both mean it in a good way.
Kris: Yes, yes, absolutely. In a good way, and you know, every now and then I will talk to a leader or hear from someone and I'm talking about imposter syndrome and explaining this insecurity that is pervasive. And they'll say, well, that's not really an issue in our organization. I don't think nobody's talking about that.
We don't have that problem in our company. And I instantly know a couple of things about that leader and that organization. Number one, I know that they are probably out of touch because statistically 70 to 80% of the population experiences imposter syndrome at some point in their career. There's almost no way.
It's a near statistical impossibility that you have an organization of any size where that's not happening. And so what that means is that leader either is sort of willfully blind to what their people are wrestling with or people are afraid to acknowledge that they have an insecurity, a fear, a weakness, and in either case, that's a problem for that leader.
That's something that I wanna encourage anybody who felt that way coming into this or is halfway through this conversation going, ah, this doesn't apply to me. I want to really encourage you to examine yourself and ask yourself. Is it really not an issue in my organization, or am I just unaware of it?
Because people don't feel safe that they can come and tell me? And a leader has the opportunity to open up that conversation by being the first to be vulnerable, to be being the first to acknowledge that, hey, we have challenges. And so if you ask your organization, honestly, does anybody struggle with not feeling like they're worthy or not feeling like, and you.
You you gotta create some safety, some psychological safety for them to open up to this. But if you feel like your organization doesn't have this problem, then that's probably a sign that it's very pervasive and you're just not able to see it because they don't feel like they can open up about that.
Mike: It also sounds to me, if a leader said that to me, I'm gonna say that leader is probably, I hate to use the word like that, but ignorant of what imposter syndrome is. Or maybe they've got it themselves and they're afraid because if you understand what it is, you understand people aren't talking about it, that's part of the problem.
So you've gotta start that conversation. And I wanna kind of loop it back around to something you said earlier where studies have shown maybe it's 70%, you know, of people that may feel that way.
When you take that statistic you take your recommendation on what the first step is
Kris: Mm-hmm.
Mike: Which is tell somebody else, it ought to make you feel more comfortable telling someone else, because chances are pretty damn good that they're not only gonna be understanding
Kris: Yeah.
Mike: But they're probably gonna say, you know what, I feel the same way, or I have felt the same way. And maybe they were afraid to talk about it. So man, maybe you're helping them out. Yes. In the same way. So that's absolutely beautiful.
Kris: And this is one of the reasons that I chose to start talking publicly about this because I can say number one, hey, here's an entrepreneur. I've found it to run two different companies, and yet I struggled with imposter syndrome for a long times, and still it comes up in certain circumstances
where I have to to really battle those self-doubts. And so I want to open up that conversation for people. I just recently, I spoke to, I won't say which one, but a major state university, you know, a statewide university.
Kris: I spoke to the entire faculty and staff of that university, and we did an anonymous poll, basically just explained what imposter syndrome was and said, how many people struggle with this at some point, and it was 96%.
Mike: Wow.
Kris: Of the faculty and staff, faculty and staff of a major state university said 96% of 'em. And so then I was able to say, look, everybody, here's the stats. So let's all just quit pretending that A, you don't deal with it. And B, if you do deal with it, you're the only one. Cause neither one of those things is true for 96% of you.
So just opening up that conversation and allowing people to speak freely, is such a help and such a value. You unlock some fear and some insecurity and that risk aversion and that behavior of managing your image.
You unlock those things for your people and allow them to talk freely, and that's the first step towards conquering this, towards, you know, getting over those insecurities and fears is being to talk about it being open.
One of the sinister things about imposter syndrome is that it makes you feel like you're the only one. The very nature of it is this fear that if I say something, I'm gonna be the only one and then I'm gonna be ostracized because everybody else is secure and confident and I'm not.
And once you know that, you're not the only one, and especially once you know that it's 96% of your colleagues, then it becomes a lot easier to just open up and have a conversation about it.
Mike: It's almost like the problem is you're wearing this mask.
Kris: Yeah.
Mike: And the simple solution, which sounds a lot simpler than I'm saying it is take the damn mask off.
Kris: Right.
Mike: You're not as ugly as you think you are. You're gonna take that mask off and you're gonna realize you're beautiful. Or you might realize everybody's just as crazy looking as you are.
Kris: Yeah.
Mike: Take the mask off. I love that. I love that. So, Kris, I know. So overcoming the imposter is the book. It's what we've been talking about. I know that's not all you focus on, you know, in your business. Tell me a little bit about how you know, who are your typical clients and how do you work with them?
Kris: Yeah. First and foremost, I'm a professional speaker and I do talk about imposter syndrome quite a bit. I've spoken on a number of topics over the years, but the last couple of years, especially since this book was published, that has been the main thing that I'm hired to speak on and talk to
leadership conferences, private institutions, organizations, universities, etc. Secondly, I do some leadership coaching. I am a professional certified coach with the ICF. In fact, I teach coaching classes, as you mentioned in the bio. I'm on faculty with a coaching school. So I work one-on-one primarily with small business owners.
And then occasionally I work with an entire leadership team of a small business doing things like, goal setting, problem solving, team health, communication, really shoring up the health of that team so that they can be effective leaders.
Mike: Excellent. And this'll, this'll be in the show notes, but I'll ask anyway, where someone wants to find out more about you or buy your book, give us a couple of places they ought to go.
Kris: So I'm really easy to find online, if you remember that my name starts with a K, K R I S. Kelso, K E L S O. And so I'm at kriskelso.com and, I'm Kris Kelso on most of the social platforms. And you can also find specifically the book at overcomingtheimposter.com. And there's info on the book, on my keynote speech, some videos and some other interviews that I've done all available there.
And in fact, on that, overcoming the imposter website, you can get a free chapter of the book, and it's not the first chapter where, you know, all I do is set up the problem and don't give you any solutions. It's actually chapter seven, which is one of the best chapters in the book.
It's the one where we talk about reframing failure as learning and shifting your mindset, some of the things we talked about earlier in this conversation. So I'd encourage your listeners to go grab that free chapter because, it is really, really powerful on its own, even if you don't end up reading the entire book, which of course you should anyway.
Mike: Beautiful. So reframe failure is learning. Confidence is the ability to figure it out. And right after you're done listening to this, if you have imposter syndrome, you suspect you have imposter syndrome, find someone, tell them about it. That's the first step to solve a problem. Beautiful, beautiful. So Kris, this was great. So helpful to, I hope so many people. So, hey, thanks for, coming on the show. This was great.
Kris: Thank you, Mike. I really enjoyed it. This was a great conversation.